09. Oct 2003 01:37
Since quite a long time I was thinking about fair and hard to cheat voting system. I liked the idea online voting and people themselves chosing their favourites, but the results were usually considered unfair and heavily influenced by the fame of the competitors. Anonymous voting solves this problem only partially, as most famous musicians have unique and quite easily recognisable style. Jury isn?t very good solution either, as it?s quite hard to assemble large and qualified group of people to get the bullet-proof and fair results.
Then, when I was traveling back from Poland from North Party 8 it came to me. I was considering the amount of participants the SID COMPO had last year (30) and then I?ve got an interesting idea. How about if the participants selected "the best one" from themselves. Minimal level of musical qualification of such jury members is assured as well as the diversity of their musical styles and tastes. The result of such voting could be quite interesting, don?t you think?
09. Oct 2003 08:04
Please explain why the rules state that you should submit a SID file. Sorry if Im starting to sound like Murdock, but isnt it stupid to submit the entries to a C-64 music competition in a non-native file format? Whats next, a demo compo where you have to submit your entry as an emulator snapshot?
09. Oct 2003 08:38
Mh, this time we have a whole month, mh, well see... About .SID file: oh well, puterman... The SID file is only a native one with some text, you know, and probably you havent to take that .SID file request as an ethic change for the compo, but only as an easy way in order to take around and spread the native file in a much more informative but still same-for-everybody shape...
09. Oct 2003 10:33
Okay, now that my game is finally finished. Ill work on some music for the SID compo ;)
09. Oct 2003 11:37
Puterman, its organisational thing. If someone submits his tune as only as a C64 executable I will have more work with unpacking them, riping music out, erasing author info, repacking and publishing. There is not unified native C64 format for music (Thanks god!) and also every executable is different (some have even small demo effects or images). For convenience, during the compo, the files are published as SIDs. 2 years it worked very well and this format seems to be the best format for an online compo where musics are published on-the-fly. When the compo is finished and voting starts, musics are distributed as C64 executable pack (check last 2 years). Optional stuff says at the end of rules, that PRG files can be also send.
09. Oct 2003 11:44
Updated the optional rules. Added note that if you cant create the .SID file send a C64 executable.
09. Oct 2003 12:32
I think Ill go in and try to compose something (let ears be broken ;) ) ... and you said about covers... does that apply also to music I made eg on a PC and wanted it to be converted to C64? thats they way I often work... I sketch something on PC and later work around in Goat Tracker...
09. Oct 2003 12:41
CreaMD: All youd have to do would be to state in the rules that the submitted files should not contain any author info. Problem solved.
PSID and RSID files are more convenient for users of sid players, and less convenient for C-64 users. If thats the audience you want, maybe you should specify that its an emulator compo, not a C-64 compo.
Sorry for whining, but this is a slippery slope, and Ive already seen a graphics compo where the pictures were displayed on the voting web page. I guess many were tempted to not actually watch the pictures, but instead just base their votes on the screenshots.
09. Oct 2003 12:42
itd be cool if everyone supplies an executable, so a disk with all the entries can be spread in the end, cause id like to listen to the entries on the actual machine (no fundamentalism here - i just prefer the sound of the actual sid =)
btw its nice that the compo will stay anonymous, so funky vote-happenings like in the last year can be prevented.
09. Oct 2003 13:19
Raf: Covering your own tunes? Allowed ;-)) (but no re-releases please. ;-)
Puterman: "All you?d have to do would be to state in the rules that the submitted files should not contain any author info." Its not so easy. The rules must be as simple as possible. I want to avoid receiving many types of files, with different content. I really dont want to spent time ripping-out the tunes from PRG files and make SIDs from them. This all would mean additional work. PSID and RSID files are convenient for further use as you can make C64 executables from them and you can easily erase any author info from then in text editor. "If that?s the audience you want, maybe you should specify that it?s an emulator compo, " This really hurts. Why do I spend my time converting tunes to executables and release C64 voting pack when the voting starts? And anyway, Do you believe people will transfer single PRG files into C64 and listen to them while the compo lasts? Of course this is not emulator compo, but emulators are not prohibited. Sorry for whining, but this is a slippery slope, and I?ve already seen a graphics compo where the pictures were displayed on the voting web page. I guess many were tempted to not actually watch the pictures, but instead just base their votes on the screenshots. Yeah I this is a good point, and for this reason the C64 executables voting pack is released when the voting starts. This is how it was organised for 2 times already and it worked. I of course cant say know how many people actually runned the voting pack on real machine. I did, and I enjoyed it.
09. Oct 2003 13:21
First tune received.
09. Oct 2003 13:25
Just to add my vote to the poll: I agree with Puterman and Aelzdy. By making .SID the default format you just stimulate people to prefer PC for listening. However, the two independent systems of voting - one public and one within the contributors - is a cool idea.
09. Oct 2003 13:26
FIRST TUNE RECEIVEEED? 8O
09. Oct 2003 13:39
Personally, I use to listen the compo entries on the original machine. But I have a newSID, what about 6581 based ones? How many of us can proudly show both SIDs? Another point: .sid files produce many voters than .prg, wed all accepted this statistic truth, ok. Once you know that "the closer to the original machine audio" is only a slice of the whole judgement for a tune, I hope in a large number of voters, not in a little number of purist expert voters, that will count in the contributors vote corner. Weird, but the 3rd edition rules seem to work much good than we can expect...
09. Oct 2003 13:45
...apart if your 8580 .sid file was spreadt without the 8580 flag on, and all the people listen to your music with "if not recognized use 6581" option, as happened with my entry during the SIDwine2 voting period! :D Lotta ppl said "out of tune", lol.
09. Oct 2003 13:57
Thanx for the first reaction on the JURY idea, any more?
09. Oct 2003 16:39
CreaMD: Yes, its that easy. You specify that the files sent in should be "executable C-64 files, without author info", and then you distribute those files (collected on a d64, for easy transferring). If people dont follow the rules, theyre disqualified (or notified on what to change). No need for SID files, no need for you to rip or hack anything.
If, however, someone codes something cool, instead of using a standard player, turning it into a SID file might be a real pain, at least with PSID files. Hint: why isnt my compo tune from LCP2001 in HVSC? (There are actually two correct answers. One is that no one but me would ever want to listen to it, another is that it wasnt easy enough to rip.)
I dont know if people would transfer tunes to the C-64 and listen to them. (Just like I dont know if people would transfer demos and watch them if there were AVIs of all the demos in some demo compo, or transfer pictures if there were already PNGs available.) What I do know is that youre sending out a message very similar to the one in the above mentioned graphics compo, and I think its a bit problematic.
09. Oct 2003 17:08
Shall I program the voting pack? ;)
09. Oct 2003 17:51
Puterman we dont live in ideal world. If we lived in ideal world I would write ideal rules for ideal C64 users and they would send me the files exactly following the rules. In ideal world the compo would last 2 weeks. In ideal world the compo wouldnt need anonymous voting. In ideal world I wouldnt have think out the jury coz people would not cheat voting! In ideal world I would disqualify every entry not following the rules. In ideal world I wouldnt have to dispute such things like wheter it is right to compose or listen to music on emulators. But no! We dont live in ideal world. I dont always get files in the shape as I request them. I do have to look up for composers names, to measure song legths. I do have to tolerate updates of the already sent songs. In this non-ideal world I have shifted the deadline because people requested that last year. Every year Im, making compromises and adapting rules for this non-ideal world. I did compromise this time too. On your request Ive added optional info that I accept executables, but no I wont deny SID files as I consider them the best way how to archive and store C64 music data, ever since there is a HVSIDs collection which have established this file format as de-facto standard universal format for C64 music. Again I repeat. There will be voting pack containing C64 executables and that C64 executables are accepted.
09. Oct 2003 17:52
Richard, no thank you.
09. Oct 2003 22:00
09. Oct 2003 22:18
First off, I have to state that all covers should be allowed in my opinion. Roman, even with utmost respect to your (and jurys) knowledge of music that I have, you are not able to disqualify a tune which covers another one, which you dont know about. This is a dead paragraph, relying on composers good will completely - I can think of THOUSANDS of songs that I can remake on a C64 and nobody will ever realize that I did so. For example: I thought about covering Roy Hargroves "Caryisms" and compete with it in SID Compo III - how many sceners know about Roy Hargroves existence, let alone his music? How many covers from the previous edition of SID Compo would be recognized as covers, if the composers didnt let us know? Apart from Sidders "Mr Pivo", which was an obvious case - not a single one, I suppose.
"Just like I don?t know if people would transfer demos and watch them if there were AVIs of all the demos in some demo compo, or transfer pictures if there were already PNGs available."
SID format does not screw up an original shape of an entry. You cant transfer AVI or PNG back onto a real machine. On the contrary, just use PSID64 by Roland Hermans to do SID->PRG conversions - it does the trick in a second. Case closed.
"First tune received."
Put it online!... "Nigga, pleeze!..." :)
Sllamwont Byo (inspired by Aelzdy)
09. Oct 2003 22:28
Er, I almost forgot. Every composer should provide a SID model info (which SID did he compose his entry on).
09. Oct 2003 23:18
Yeah I will add that into the rules (=guidelines ;-)) Smaltown Boy covers unfortunately arent allowed this year. If anyone cheat its problem of his own conscience.
09. Oct 2003 23:27
I will add the first tune when I get some time. Last few weeks Im really busy. I was afraid I wont have time to launch the compo.
10. Oct 2003 01:29
First entry added.
10. Oct 2003 02:36
hey, a cool addition would be a guess-the-autor bonus level. i think im good at guessing at who did what. =)
10. Oct 2003 08:29
To further problematize things - what is the definition of a cover? Is it enough if you have been inspired by existing music? Would cutting a snippet out of an preexisting song count as a cover? If you mix two songs together to form a new tune, have you then done a cover...or two? Is Eminems song Stan a cover, or an original work of art? You tell me.
10. Oct 2003 08:43
Smalltown Boy: yes, youre right, it was an incorrect analogy.
CreaMD: it seems a discussion is out of the question, even regarding technical matters, so Ill stop it and just silently disagree with you.
10. Oct 2003 09:09
Dane: eh, an ancient discussion, I see. You make me remember that my SIDcompoII entry was inspired by the music I heard years before during the undersea levels of Donkey Kong Country game on Gameboy!Mh, I guess that a scandalous cover in a SIDtune slice should be easy to be spotted, and probably thats the unique case in which we could disqualify an entry. The common rule would be: dont be so scandalous :D
10. Oct 2003 09:29
Yeah, lets not complicate the things. Take inspiration anywhere recreate the materials any-way, but do the art thing. Borrow but dont steal. Thosw who did few covers know that what they want to achieve is to being as faithful to original as possible. If author didnt mention in the credits or in the name of the tune that its a cover that would be stealing. Making a cover, trying to make a faithful tribute to the tune is a hard (but rewarding} work that doesnt need much artistic skills, just a good craft. So do what you want but dont steal and ask muse to help you with the stuff. Covers arent allowed. The rest will be evaluated individually.
Puterman: And I apologise for being stubborn.
10. Oct 2003 09:54
Wouldnt it be difficult to guess-the-author if there are entries from not previously published musicians? To what extent have previous compos attracted new people?
10. Oct 2003 10:08
First compo (GoatTracker competition) had 10 entries about 40 votesheets submitted if I remember right. Second compo had 30 entries and 79 votesheets submitted. Read more in the article under "history". (Click on the link above the news post here in reactions.)
10. Oct 2003 10:15
Anders, you probably arent the same Anders Carlsson who uses the nick Goto80 and happens to be a musician, are you?
10. Oct 2003 10:40
CreaMD, is it intentional that you left out the SID/CLOCK flags from the first submission? Is it to even more hide the provenience of the author? ;-)
10. Oct 2003 12:09
CreaMD, is it intentional that you left out the SID/CLOCK flags from the first submission? Is it to even more hide the provenience of the author? ;-)
10. Oct 2003 12:11
Hey, that wasnt me! Someone is trying to echo me! Echo me! me!
10. Oct 2003 12:14
Hmm I remember Ive answered... I wrote that it was responsibility of the author Ive just erased all credits from the SID file...
10. Oct 2003 13:53
Why not ask him privately? Maybe he doesnt know how to properly edit the headers of the SID file?
SIDEdit is, as always, to be recommended for that job - pretty idiot proof - even we from the HVSC team use it... ;-)
10. Oct 2003 14:27
Gimme url plz. I was doing the editing manually.
10. Oct 2003 15:03
Here you are:
If you have questions about the switches, you have my e-mail. :-)
10. Oct 2003 17:01
10. Oct 2003 22:23
Dalezy (or whatever your nick is today :>), it would be unfair to introduce such a bonus level. I would have points right from the start, as my friends never forget to share their newest sidtunes with me. Exciting, yes, educating (ahem), of course, but unfair. We still can use this comments section for guessing the authors - it should be fun with a capital F. Id bet Im as good at this as you are, prove me wrong ;)
Dane - good point. If I take eight bars of a theme, add my own chords and rhythm section to it, and then let it evaluate later into something totally different from the original - is it still a cover? Partial cover? Allowed or not? Im not gonna make such a move (although I did that a few times in the past) - I have already started something from scratch. Just asking.
Smalltown Largepenis Boy
11. Oct 2003 11:19
2nd tune received. And up in few minutes hopefully
11. Oct 2003 11:35
Oh and Puterman: You just wait for the christmas update! I ordered our chiefmastersuperripper to get to work on your LCP2001 tune! ;-)
11. Oct 2003 16:59
11. Oct 2003 19:32
steppe: what a waste of time. :-)
12. Oct 2003 07:32
Yup, a waste of MY time! :-)
12. Oct 2003 11:57
sb, no doubt, i think you consume sidtunes as regulary as i do =)
12. Oct 2003 22:07
CreaMD: No and yes. Im not Goto80, but Im a musician.
12. Oct 2003 22:30
C64 musician? That would be cool!
13. Oct 2003 00:16
creamd, similar names aint seldom =)
for example, i know 2 stellan andersons that are in the scene, and both do musick ..
13. Oct 2003 00:44
I wouldnt call what I do music. :)
13. Oct 2003 00:53
I know one, but who is the second?
13. Oct 2003 01:13
creamd, hes a pc-guy, its stellan/bypass also formerly known as jellydog/tql.
13. Oct 2003 08:22
Being a pc-guy counts as being in the scene?
13. Oct 2003 11:34
In a scene. :-)
13. Oct 2003 11:56
So far, Im more known as a VIC and Plus/4 musician (using my own routines, which are much too inferior for porting to SID).
13. Oct 2003 12:27
Anders aka Zapac! I liked your music in Beggars arent Choosers demo, I hope youll release a little TEDmusic editor, like the one you used in that demo.
13. Oct 2003 21:17
3rd tune received. Fat stuff!
14. Oct 2003 08:36
Err.. an editor? I was considering doing the opposite, and use SIDwinder if I ever write for the Plus/4 again.
You might want to know that I usually compose in OctaMED using square wave samples only, then print the blocks to file and manually convert the output to macro inputs which the assembler can handle. Its quite a bit from an editor, although I toyed with the idea three years ago.
14. Oct 2003 09:41
If you dont have C64 you could try Goat Tracker (a PC/Windows based editor) for this compo Anders. You can grab it here
14. Oct 2003 11:25
Yes, Im already using Goat Tracker (as well as SIDwinder and previously Music Assembler, both native C64). Neither of these programs however supports VIC-I, which was why I used the described method (although by now both Fisichella and VIC-Tracker exists among others).
14. Oct 2003 20:06
Whoa... 4th tune received.
15. Oct 2003 11:51
crmd, the link to the sidcompo2 results on the sc3-info-page is kinda leading to pc10 instead of the real page =)
15. Oct 2003 13:09
ahhm.. schaiz?... thats copy of c64.sk on my localhost. Thanx for feedback gotta correct it.
16. Oct 2003 11:46
hmm.. cutnpaste bug :) there are two 3rd songs ;)
16. Oct 2003 12:23
Thanx. ...corrected ;-)
16. Oct 2003 17:03
jelly-stellan did visit floppy2002 if that makes him count more as a scener. unfortunately he wasnt there this year since he was hanging out with some buddy who was anti-data, which is a shame because it would have been interesting to see if having two musical stellan andersson in the same room makes the universe collapse
16. Oct 2003 20:46
5th tune received. Thankyo!
17. Oct 2003 12:51
It sounds a bit like Dalezy, but is made on Goat Tracker...?
17. Oct 2003 13:13
Dalezy has a little bit better sounds ;-))
17. Oct 2003 13:13
But yeah the tune has incredible slides and interesting rythms.
17. Oct 2003 13:30
Better sounds? Well... I thought the instruments in "Intelligent Technology" are that raw intentionally, to recreate a technological atmosphere. But if it aint Dalezy... Hmmmmmmmmmm
17. Oct 2003 14:34
17. Oct 2003 15:40
uhm, i didnt submit a tune yet. so i can say for sure that this isnt my tune. =) (and above all, i dont think it sounds the slightest bit like what i do =)
ok, time to deinstall my c64s and off to the club .. wish krill and me luck =)
17. Oct 2003 16:59
Have good time Dalzey and Rock da Place! ;-)
17. Oct 2003 17:44
In the interests of fairness, it would be best not to speculate whose entry is which so far... It could affect the voting, even subconciously.
17. Oct 2003 22:26
hey, could be interesting to guess which style fits to which composer but dalezy & co: don?t tell us whether your tune is in or not.
old hand composer
17. Oct 2003 22:28
Eh... Youre trying to spoil my fun, but let it be. Lets do it (guess the composers, that means...) privately.
17. Oct 2003 22:33
I agree with what Merman is saying because it would give the whole compo away. Nice entries so far, except for Tune 5 ;)
18. Oct 2003 04:53
just came back from dalezys gig. the whole club was dancin....yeaaaaah! dont let this affect your voting, even not subconciously! :)
18. Oct 2003 08:01
;-)) SB you will have chance to guess the authors but not now. Its too soon for that ;-)
18. Oct 2003 20:49
ill keep my fingers shut. youre all right, tho i dont think it will affect the votings. this competition is still about musick, not whether is taking part or not.
as for the gig, it turned out really great. the response was really awesome (especially when i played heinmukks tune as bonus =), the people literary hit a hole in the floor and after i unpacked, some people came up to the stage and asked me where they can buy my stuff and if its possible to book me for further events. (there was also someone who constantly wanted me to play arkanoid.sid - it was hard to explain to him that im actually playing with c64s instead of sidplay =)
18. Oct 2003 20:50
not whether is taking part or not. = not whether (handle) is taking part or not.
19. Oct 2003 14:10
I had no idea one had to arrange live outings in order to gain votes in this competition. Will a set featuring Puterman dancing madly to my tunes do?
19. Oct 2003 14:19
dane, only if you can deliver proof for that happening. really, id die for a recording of that. :D
19. Oct 2003 20:28
Are there guys who had problems with GoatTracker v1.4c producing silent exported SIDs? can someone explain it?
19. Oct 2003 20:32
Sorry to make you all disappointed, but I only dance to Twoflowers tunes.
19. Oct 2003 20:42
Raf: yeah, me. Use 1.4 instead.
19. Oct 2003 21:30
@dlz: there is a recording of Puterman doing the Twoflower dance at LCP2002, it ought to be around somewhere...
19. Oct 2003 21:39
Its so unfair.
19. Oct 2003 23:32
You can also redownload V1.4c - $d418 bug is fixed now.
21. Oct 2003 10:58
7th tune received, and is to be uploaded as soon as I get back my FTP connection! (our wireless provider decided to cut off all ports ;-)
21. Oct 2003 11:48
Okay so Ive used ISDN, Im not so patient... ;-) enjoy.
21. Oct 2003 16:11
Not bad, that Kingston one... Better than Chantelle (nice title, but hardly anything more), for sure.
BTW., people, where are your comments about incoming tunes, it actually IS allowed - huh?
21. Oct 2003 16:37
Kingstons sick .. is that another way to say "my RAM chips need to be replaced"? I wonder whats next - Dead Vikings, Corsair Away or maybe No More Mr. Nice Twinmos? :-)
22. Oct 2003 15:39
more tunes please =) i think i can hum along all the tunes now, because theyre in steady rotation in my playlist ..
22. Oct 2003 19:14
;-))) Dont worry I have feeling that its a silence before the storm ;-)
22. Oct 2003 20:33
8th tune received and added.
22. Oct 2003 22:02
8th tune rocks :) But 7s the best!
22. Oct 2003 22:47
;-)) 8th tune truly rocks! 7th tune is another music style ;-)
22. Oct 2003 23:03
Yo 9th tune received and added.
22. Oct 2003 23:53
8th tune: composition is nice indeed. A year ago, I would lay my hand in fire its Cadaver, but nowadays so many people use his instruments from Goat Tracker... It could be virtually anyone.
23. Oct 2003 00:55
#9 truly rocks.
btw, creamd, according to the entry-list we got 2 #8 now. =)
23. Oct 2003 01:34
9th tune: title does not fit the style (or do we - me and author of that music - know different definitons of funk?...). Apart from that, pleasant one, even if a little bit boring for me. Instruments are truly impressive. Well, SID Duzz It. :D
23. Oct 2003 01:36
Instruments truly impressive? There is a bass in that tune? :/
23. Oct 2003 08:35
CreaMD: youre falling in the same error done e.g. in SIDwine ("Lucas entry seems to be dissonant!"). I bet a ball of mine that a certain number of users had downloaded the 8580-based musics in order to listen them on SIDplay2; unfortunately, all of them but "Forgotten 80s" are .sid files WITH NO CHIP FLAG SWITCHED ON! Hence, as default, the SIDplay2 plays those 8580 tunes with 6581 emulation. I think you should use SIDedit applying the correct chip flag to all of them.
23. Oct 2003 09:16
Uhmmm, after the very first comments about tune 8 and 9, I picture until now another extremely heterogeneous vote time... ;)
23. Oct 2003 09:17
Tune 1,2,5,6 and 7 all have SID model unknown in SIDplay2. Perhaps it would be fair to the conmposers of these tunes if that was fixed? Im not too sure about one SID or the other making the tune sound dissonant - I though frequencies were the same on both - but filters and envelope switching is definitely affected. Also, Im sure the remaining lot of composers who are sending tunes to CreamD will attend this problem by themselves before sending their SIDs in, right?
23. Oct 2003 09:25
1. I will correct that sid flag. 2. That 9th tune is IMO heavily dependent on real SID environment Therefore start to judge when the votepack is released. Unfortunatelly not everyone has both types of sid at home, handy. I do. Who else? I wonder how should be the tunes served to audience when the voting starts.
Damn gotta correct that nasty flag... ;-)
23. Oct 2003 09:47
Make MP3s from a real SID chip? Since most of these songs are < 4 minutes, it doesnt have to take enormous amounts of disk space (btw, at what compression ratio should multi-speed SIDs typically be mangled?). As long as Martin Galway himself doesnt enter the compo with a song specifically made for his filter-specific SID chip, sampling any decent chip should do.
23. Oct 2003 09:49
Ive corrected the tunes 1,2,5,6,7 and 8 if there is any problem now, let me know. Thanx for help everybody. Btw. how can I "visually" check the correct flag set, in Sidplay2/w ? or is there any other convenient way to have overview while listening?
23. Oct 2003 09:53
Use Properties - it will say what SID is emulated and what flag is set in the .sid-file.
23. Oct 2003 09:53
File -> Properties in Sidplay2/w will tell you the SID model in use plus a lot more information.
23. Oct 2003 09:54
Making MP3 of tunes on real SID is a good idea, but that would made the whole compo-voting and stuff available to less people. People are different. I will release a D64 with all files in executable format every file having visible identification of which SID chip is used. MP3 would be nice as an option but it would be much more work that gain. And also, some fan of ogg would tell me why dont you provide oggs they are so much better ;-))).
23. Oct 2003 09:59
Thanx a lot Dane and Anders!
23. Oct 2003 09:59
Less people? Somehow I believe there are more people out there with a MP3-compatible computer than with a SID-enhanced computer (RealSID, Catweasel or real C64/128 etc). BTW, sampling SID and release on CD might be the new craze after Project Galway was released. :-)
Anders Carlsson (A when I accently press Return too fast)
23. Oct 2003 10:02
Supplying us with mp3 would only make us less inclined to boot our c64s. We dont want that.
23. Oct 2003 10:09
Nor do I. Thanx Dane! ;-) Anders, I like the idea, but the compo already is quite mainstream oriented with all this sidplay stuff etc. Anyone can download latest sidplay from here: http://cgi.student.nada.kth.se/cgi-bin/d93-alo/sp2w.zip
It was announced at c64.sk few weeks ago. Its the most-easiest-to-setup music player Ive ever seen. More people should use it instead of below average winamp SID plugins ;-)
23. Oct 2003 10:28
10th tune received and added.
23. Oct 2003 11:18
Blah, this SID model thing is so exaggerated. If people cant make tunes that sounds decent on more than one SID revision, thats their problem.
23. Oct 2003 12:09
Puterman I agree with you, but you know Im one of those NEW SID fanatics ;-) And btw. Dankos or JTs tunes on old sid rules! ;-)
23. Oct 2003 12:23
Puterman: thats not so easy. When trying to standarize a tune, so it would sound more or less the same on both SIDs, you have to make compromises, and therefore the instruments start to sound not quite how they were supposed to sound. If you write for one SID model from start to finish, everything can be perfectly tailored to your needs.
23. Oct 2003 12:25
Dane: all right, bass in "Shining Hour" is better than in "Downstairs Funk" :D - yet Im still sort of impressed with drums and leads in the latter...
23. Oct 2003 13:11
puterman: ahahahahahahahah! No, wait, I still have enough: ahahahah! XD
23. Oct 2003 15:07
Nr 8 gives me Synth Sample (Georg Feil) vibes.. at least before the rhythm section kicks in. Someone else?
23. Oct 2003 15:35
aaaaah. looking to the latest entries it seems to me the quality is getting better and better. cool! hey dane, i have bet you will submit a tune with the same sounds and style as always. nice tune of course, but it?s really boring to listen to the same stuff since ages now. sorry, no attack.
23. Oct 2003 15:41
So much about anonymous competition ;-) I bet everybody would recognise my tune either. Unless I?ve submitted something in GT? Hmmm? ;-))
Black Sheep - Ugha Sid of Sid Brothers a.k.a CreaMD of Dmagic a.k.a Dmagician
23. Oct 2003 15:42
And now please lets be more discrete, there will be a time for guessing compo but not until the compo ends okee? ;-)
23. Oct 2003 16:07
#5 is what I like - weird komputer musik... hehe...
23. Oct 2003 16:07
Anders, the name of #7 is actually an anagram for... Well, find it out. ^^
23. Oct 2003 16:44
CreaMD: New SID fanatics tend to use mixed waveforms, which means their tunes sound like shit on the computer I use 99% of the time.
SB: Yes, you need to compromise a lot to make them sound _the_same_ on different SID chips, but thats not what I was talking about. It can sound different, but still listenable, which isnt the case if you use mixed waveforms (eg. listen to Space of Chaos by Orcan on an old SID, it sucks). And anyway, if you want things to be easy, you should pick some other platform to produce stuff for. :-)
23. Oct 2003 17:06
Puterman, tell me about mixed waveforms ;-)) I havent known about them until one Dmagical meeting in Rintelne (1999?) when I was surrounded by old sids. Nightmare! ;-)) Anyway I have one at home now thanx to Thunderblade / Protovision (ex-Dmagic) if I ever decide to make decent tune working on both sids. Anyway this
tune of mine should sound very bad on old sid afaik. ;-) Space of chaos on OLD sid.. ah yeah.. but listen to e.g. last Savage last tune, or Red Devils for Avantagarde on new SID.. the filtered bass is somewhere completely else than it should be ;-)
23. Oct 2003 17:08
Rinteln I mean.
23. Oct 2003 17:11
Puterman: your old SID hasnt got as many capabilities as a new SID has. Thats all. You cant build a good harpsichord part without using $51, neither can you make cool, fat, metallic-sounding bass (like in Sidders Super Frog for example) without using $61. Et caetera, et caetera. Its still what I was talking about - whether to take advantage of your particular SID models specifics or to give it up and standarize instead.
CreaMD: only deaf people wouldnt recognize the author of "Shining Hour" - so you shouldnt worry, for they will not take part in voting nor in guessing. :D
23. Oct 2003 17:29
"it?s really boring to listen to the same stuff since ages now" You know, you could always try checking out other HVSC-dirs than mine.
23. Oct 2003 17:50
I don?t rate todays sid musicians to high nowdays.. Grg/Shape and Dane is among the better ones, that?s my opinion. Mitch the other half of Dane, is he out of the picture? Look out for the tune "Pepita" in the Hvsc dir by GRG & Geir Tjelta. THAT?s a nice song!
23. Oct 2003 19:04
Derek, perhaps youre not paying enough attention. GRG and Dane are of course top musicians, but not the only ones - fortunately. Ever heard about Vip, Shapie, Jammer, Gerard Hultink, Orcan, to name but a few?...
23. Oct 2003 19:46
 "...dont rate todays SID musicians too high nowadays" ..and I dont rate opinions of this kind too high either. Typical opinion of nostalgiac retro enthusiast. ;-)
23. Oct 2003 20:59
Ah! I found out the anagram.. it has to be "CSS is to kink ng" (sic!) which means somebody is fed up with all kinds of Speccy perverts over there. Err, no?
23. Oct 2003 21:07
(or maybe it is "Sting knock sis" which is a effective way of telling what happened backstage when your little sister finally got to meet her lifelong idol and soon will get a nice monthy check to pay for her expenses.. nah, Ill stop fooling around now)
23. Oct 2003 22:02
Retro enthusiast? Well, i?m just a guy waiting for a new C64 song to knock me of my feet like "The Alibi" by Laxity did.. don?t forget your roots boys. =) Thumbs up! (No, my handle is not Crossbow!)
23. Oct 2003 22:29
Derek, there is hundreds of C64 tunes released every year, 21 years and still kicking... so much about knocking... if you really need to say your opinion you should probably try to show better insight than telling us few big song names and musician names we already know from top to bottom from our hearths. What is your favourite song by some musician we dont know? ;-))
23. Oct 2003 22:43
i agree to what has been said above concerning the quality of this years contributions. right now theres 6 out of 10 tunes that i really like, i wonder what will come up next =?
23. Oct 2003 22:45
derek, but youre basically talking about the catchiness of the tunes .. i for one (and i know im not alone) do also check for the techniques of certain artists. and theres still new and amazing stuff coming up these days.
23. Oct 2003 22:56
Well, Ive just got a weird idea and sent out
spam.. ahem, note to all musicians who participated in last years compo. Just to be sure they know there is Sid Compo III running. Yeah yeah.. I have that tiny little magalomaniac dream of beating last years compo in all aspects. 8-D
23. Oct 2003 23:21
Creamd, how about "Steady" by Petri Reiman (Anvil). Good song. Dalezy, that?s exactly what i?m talking about. Many of todays C64 musicians can do amazing things with the sidchip soundwise.. i?ve heard stuff by Jeff & Vip that sounds fantastic. Jeff?s multispeed tunes are mindblowing. All i?m asking for is a little bit more harmony & melody. Is that too much? =)
24. Oct 2003 01:18
Steady by Anvil? Derek sorry but don?t tell me that tune is your favourite. You must have some special emotional attachment to that one as it?s definitely not best Anvil?s tune. I would rather say it?s one of his worst. Beesides it?s more than 10 years old. I can?t help feeling that you live in past man. If you look for melodies how about checking other names than the 10 years gone ones. Agemixer (various styles of various levels of quality), Cadaver (Let?s Rock! ;-), The Blue Ninja (various stuff), Alien (he loves melodies it?s hearable from all his tunes ;-) etc. etc. etc. ?? ;-) I think your problem is not in the quality of todays music. It seems like you rather shuffle between your frozen set of oldies all the time mumbling the usual mumbo jumbo about good old times instead of keeping an eye over what?s being released by "living" musicians. Don?t tell me you aren;t nostalgiac retro-maniac, when you have all the typical symptoms ;-))
24. Oct 2003 08:12
Actually, I dont find melodies that often in tunes nowadays that I remember enough to hum along to later on. Sadly enough, that goes for some of my own tunes as well.
24. Oct 2003 09:01
SB: Right, its up to the person who makes the tune. I guess it makes more sense to make tunes that sound like shit on some SIDs if youre making a tune for a compo like this, where most of the people will use Sidplay to listen to the tunes anyway. It sucks when demo tunes dont work on some SIDs (like in The Last Reactor by React). But I guess thats nothing to worry about, since people stopped making demos.
Dane: Get yourself a heavy dose of Class05 by Maktone, and youll never stop humming.
24. Oct 2003 09:42
Cool Ive got an idea!!! Next time we will explicitly deny SID version tailored musics and everyone will have to produce music sounding good on both sids, its not so tragical to keep some compatibility or is it? ;-)
24. Oct 2003 11:28
If your tune is based on effects and gimmicks, it will fail miserably. If based on melody and harmonies, what chip you use wont matter much.
24. Oct 2003 11:58
Dane: get yourself a heavy dose of Maktone in general, and youll see that many musicians stick to their style so much that all their tunes sound more or less the same.
On the opposite side are guys like Dalezy - you can never tell what kind of tune will he come up with next. And thats what I like. (And thats why I had problems recognizing which SC3 entry is his :>)
24. Oct 2003 12:37
Dane, right on! Creamd, feel free to call me retro, but remember.. a good song is always a good song, no matter how old it is. And by the way, did you actually listen to the whole song or did you close it down when it diden?t had that $11 bassdrum (Boom tss Boom Tss) and $21 filtersweeping bass? ;-)
24. Oct 2003 12:48
sb, im up to basically everything. never tried doing any country/folk alike yet, but i just got an idea =)
24. Oct 2003 13:15
Good tune is a good tune no matter how old it is.. I hope you will keep that in mind next time you are going to generalise about nowadays musicians. Steady, okay so I have launched it 3rd time in my life and I hope I will not have to do it again. It is inconsistent, without concept. Especially the melody sounds like it had some notes "randomly chosen". Quite disharmonic. It doesnt matter how many or how long I will listen to that tune, I cant leave the flaws unnoticed. I dont want to offend Anvil as I also have few likes between his tunes, but this one is not between them. Ask someone who understands music better than me.
24. Oct 2003 15:10
dlz: Ive tried country/folk a couple of times, although I still havent made anything that sounds like so-called avantgarde techno :)
24. Oct 2003 15:24
11th tune added. Groovy!
24. Oct 2003 16:07
11th: my favourite! It could use more frequent harmonical changes and a catchier melody, but even without that it rules. Fresh and original.
24. Oct 2003 16:10
CreaMD, as an individual i have the right to express my personal opinion, and i don?t think i was being rude at all. I have great respect for all the C64 musicians of today. But for me, most of the newer tunes are lacking serious melody. I?m sorry you diden?t like Steady. Believe me, if that song would have shown up in the contest, i would have given it top votes. I guess it?s just a matter of personal taste. Ha en trevlig helg! =)
24. Oct 2003 16:17
Yeah we can agree on that Derek. Peace! Lets enjoy the SID music, thats why it is made for nowadays.
24. Oct 2003 18:39
24. Oct 2003 18:52
12th tune added.
24. Oct 2003 19:02
Ouch, it pulls the overall level down. :( Yet its just a third tune, out of 12 submitted, that I cant stand listening to - quite a good result anyway. Much better than in 2002.
24. Oct 2003 19:13
Dont be so sure Smalltown Boy ;-). Anyway what pleases me is the fact that the author mentions that it was composed in DMC5.0+ which is an enhaced version done by myself featuring audible editing, sector tracking and other small improvements.
24. Oct 2003 19:46
Sure of what? That the overall level of quality seems higher than a year ago? :o
24. Oct 2003 19:54
About the authors of the tunes ;-)
24. Oct 2003 21:04
He said nothing about authors :)
24. Oct 2003 23:03
no dane. i really like listening to your and mitch?s tunes and it?s no doubt you are a very skilled composer. but i think some more variations in style & sounds and some catchy meldodies (which you can hum after a while ;) could make your tunes more interesting. but hey, do what you like to do and don?t pay attention to me.
24. Oct 2003 23:28
Its funny, because SID-compo II was actually the reason I started experimenting with filter envelopes and ring modulation last year, in order to widen my arsenal of instruments. This proved useful when finishing both the intro music for Domination#17, the tune Bushido for Phases, as well as my rendition of Die Another Day. I have also noticed that the last years have seen me try to escape the traditional arpeggio-sounds of C64 in one way or another. Looking back, I dont think there is any way I could go back to doing a standard threenote arpeggio with waveform 21. I might then have made a mistake releasing much of my older material this last year, as it doesnt really give you the best of pictures of where I am today musically. However, I hope you will stay tuned, as there is music comng up that might satisfy you. I sure know Im proud of it, at least.
24. Oct 2003 23:29
However, I like funky music. It makes me want to dance. Thats why I do it. :)
25. Oct 2003 00:01
Dane!? Are you letting him get to you like that? Music is music, tastes differ, and certainly knowledge of music differs! Ive had this discussion with GH alot; most of the people wouldnt know a wv21 3 note arpeggio from a wv41 slide.... and who cares? I know the point for your tunes now must be higher; getting acknowledged by the people who you want to be acknowledged by; and yes, your tunes get only better and better that way! But dont say its because of the guys like old hand saying that you lack melody or anything. Why am I typing this whole story, when you already wrote it yourself in 1 line afterwards? :)
25. Oct 2003 00:02
However, I like funky music. It makes me want to dance. That?s why I do it. :)
25. Oct 2003 02:09
Haha, Marc, thanks for the hint (somewhere above). I should have found it out earlier, though. *grin*
25. Oct 2003 02:23
ok, end of discussion. just take it as an impulse, nothing more because i like your music. i will stay tuned.
25. Oct 2003 02:23
However, I like funky music. It makes me want to dance. That?s why I do it. :)
25. Oct 2003 08:58
13th tune released.
25. Oct 2003 09:39
I mean added.
25. Oct 2003 12:44
What hint did I give?
25. Oct 2003 18:31
I cant tell you, Roman would kill me. But it was a sufficient hint to identify one author more. Oh joy.
And BTW. "Stinking Socks" is an appalling title for a tune, thank God for the anagrams :)
25. Oct 2003 20:43
I didnt give a hint! none at all...? I know nothing about the authors...or said anything about it ... really..
25. Oct 2003 20:45
Grr...I tried to read back for 20 times, what I said... I gave no hint...im not even in the position to give hints... can hardly recognize any of the authors myself
25. Oct 2003 21:14
25. Oct 2003 21:21
No-XS, your presence here in that particular moment served as a hint. Relax now. :)
25. Oct 2003 22:31
My presence at remark 150+ was coincedence; i totally forgot about the small prints of discussion until GH asked me who Derek was... Then i started following the discussion, and only decided to answer after Dane said hed make more impressive music... :)
25. Oct 2003 22:33
Let this be noted: my presence here has nothing to do with tune 12 or something like that!! :))
25. Oct 2003 22:33
Will GH take part in this years compo? Hope so.
25. Oct 2003 22:36
Think so, yes..
25. Oct 2003 22:45
Will GH take part in this years compo? Hope so.
25. Oct 2003 22:46
Will GH take part in this years compo? Hope so.
25. Oct 2003 22:46
Shit, whats happening with that post :( Apologies for that.
26. Oct 2003 03:52
Downtown Connection is the music I *want* to be able to make... :)
26. Oct 2003 15:09
Then name all your tunes that way!? :)
26. Oct 2003 15:09
So Im back and prepare for the tune 14 which is going to be added in upcoming minutes! ;-)
26. Oct 2003 15:34
And this time I suspect I know the musician behind it.
26. Oct 2003 15:57
Dane if you want to be sure send me an E-mail ;-). I wont say the names but yes/or/no will be enough for you hopefully ;-) Anyway as I said there will be time for guessing after the deadline. Dont worry you will have chance guys! ;-)
26. Oct 2003 16:27
that XXX is a cool guy, remember drinking beers with him in 91 at some party in Greenland... i think..
26. Oct 2003 16:35
Muhahahahah ;-) But this is all SBs fault!!! He knows too much!
26. Oct 2003 16:36
No-XS I mean if you mean it seriously, thats not the same guy.
26. Oct 2003 16:38
I only know a few people who use the arpeggio this way;)
26. Oct 2003 16:40
firstname.lastname@example.org I curious to know ;-))
26. Oct 2003 17:04
Ofcourse I wasnt serious... I am never...
26. Oct 2003 17:12
GH: who ? Martin Galway?? :|
26. Oct 2003 17:15
GH: Dont say btw...... just making jokes :)
26. Oct 2003 17:37
k, i guessed it after listening to the first second =)
atleast one of the better goat-entries ..
26. Oct 2003 17:55
btw, im still pondering how the shuffle/speed-change slidecommands still fit in the shining hour tune. respect for that. =)
26. Oct 2003 18:43
XXX Reminds me a bit of Reyn Owehand :) What a cool composer Reyn was ;)
26. Oct 2003 19:26
26. Oct 2003 20:00
Yeah, Reyn is still alive, he even touches C64 keyboard once in a while ;-)
26. Oct 2003 21:14
Dalezy, you could probably ask the author of that tune for a peek inside the unpacked thing once this competition is over. Im sure that if hes a nice guy, he wouldnt mind.
26. Oct 2003 21:18
dane, thanks for the tip, ill consider doing that. =)
26. Oct 2003 21:49
Reyn made a sid a few weeks ago..also in goattracker...
26. Oct 2003 23:53
It seems like guessing compo will be fun. ;-)
26. Oct 2003 23:59
can i get some extra points within the guessing compo? =)
27. Oct 2003 00:16
You can win it by having most authors guessed right. But it would be also cool to give -points. That would be cool. Like 1 point for the correct guess and -2 for the incorrect guess ;--)))
27. Oct 2003 10:03
I wonder if someone another is going to send his work :)
27. Oct 2003 10:48
Do you think theyll be afraid that some fat tunes are already in? ;-)) I think fat stuff is still to come, believe me! ;-))
27. Oct 2003 12:34
The closer the deadline, the more people may hurry to finish their entries. At least thats the impression Ive had from other types of Internet-based compos. There is still two weeks to go until the deadline, right?
27. Oct 2003 12:53
Right. Check last year compo ;-). 30 tunes = practically 1 tune / day. I think something between 20-30 submissions can be expected and also is quite satisfacting number.
27. Oct 2003 13:12
i just noticed something. didnt we have something like an info about the editor that was used for either entry last year? now its too late to add it, but im always interested in what the people use. =)
norman bang vernon
27. Oct 2003 13:33
It will be easy to compile when the jury-voting starts I will ask authors to provide this info about their tunes too.
27. Oct 2003 13:34
Anyway try to use some decent nicknames I unfortunatelly dont recognise anyone called Nonscalar Dress or Norman Bang Vernon ;-)
27. Oct 2003 13:55
Sorry. I just got excited by the previous anagramming. BTW, there rules already has an optional addition to name the editor, but only CreaMD knows how many of the current entries have taken advantage of that.
27. Oct 2003 14:25
Not many but as I know most of the authors I can guess what editors they have used. And also there people who can help and also utils. The less info about the submitted entries the more "anonymity" thats why it is so brief now.
27. Oct 2003 14:57
You can easily tell which editor was used by analyzing a player code.
27. Oct 2003 17:58
I suck at anagrams :S Whats this norman bang vernon?
27. Oct 2003 18:30
I like to think that it is, literally, Norman bang Vernon.
27. Oct 2003 19:37
Norman Bang Vernon = Mango Ann (born Vern)?
Red Tint / Eat VIC (Damned Klaus)
27. Oct 2003 19:47
aint it too early for the guessing game?
drumlike advice attendants
27. Oct 2003 22:20
Save song... argh, software crash ending up in ARVI freezer menus. Fortunately the editor (but not its font :-) survived a soft reset and SYSing back to make that emergency save. Retro is good!
28. Oct 2003 00:57
15th tune added.
28. Oct 2003 12:01
jazzy stuff! have to listen to it a 2 or 3 times! :)
28. Oct 2003 19:48
..Went through(throe;))most of the songs, nice indeed:) btw appreciate the little solo at 1:56 song 8..
28. Oct 2003 20:51
GH yeah, me too. That song has balls! ;-)
29. Oct 2003 20:22
Wow, Floatee is awesome. I guess itspointless for me to submit a tune, the fact that I might be the only sod running an NTSC machine will help to make things worse, since the NTSC tune will be utter pants on a PAL machine. And lameulation sux :P
29. Oct 2003 20:33
Its not pointless to join compo with your tune. And the fact that your machine runs NTSC doesnt have anything to do with the quality of your compositions ;-) So if you mean that post  as public apologise for not joining the compo its a very bad excuse ;-))) Anyway I would like to hear your tune(s) at least in privately.
29. Oct 2003 21:12
Hmmm... will see what to do. Besides the lame excuse :D Cheers!
29. Oct 2003 21:43
Make your tune use CIA timer (60Hz) and itll also play at same speed on PAL machines.
29. Oct 2003 21:47
I think he has a point, Im having a hard time thinking about entering too :|
29. Oct 2003 22:18
No-XS, come on... :P
29. Oct 2003 22:59
When No-XS enters I will try make a tune too for sake of cool competition and I want beat Downtown Connection and Kingston Sick, Downstairs Funk and Flotee who makes me envy now.....
30. Oct 2003 00:00
30. Oct 2003 01:50
More compo tunes wanted! :D
30. Oct 2003 06:58
"Make your tune use CIA timer (60Hz) and it?ll also play at same speed on PAL machines." But it will still sound detuned! Thats the main problem. Anyway, Im still thinking about letting a lame entry from me to enter the compo or letting it pass for the SID giants :P
30. Oct 2003 07:52
Everyones invited :D (follow the Samsungs advertisement :D)
30. Oct 2003 10:22
NTSC, PAL only changes speed of the tune.. either it is NTSC is 120% speed of PAL. If the tune is detuned its because you made it so... ;-))
30. Oct 2003 10:54
Yeah, I know the SID oscillator base frequency is different between PAL/NTSC but all harmony/intervals in the tune is preserved, only transposed to different key (halftone or less?). So I think thats still an excuse :)
30. Oct 2003 11:14
Bartosz: you can start composing now. No-XS entry has been submitted already, hes just trying to fool us :)
30. Oct 2003 13:36
SB Ive E-mailed him about that, you should have been more discrete.
30. Oct 2003 15:30
I didnt say anything significant. Dont treat everything that seriously, please.
30. Oct 2003 15:50
Doing things seriously gives serious results. But anyway youre right this is not that important.
31. Oct 2003 08:31
And now for something completely different. 16th tune! Lets see what our court guessor says ;-)))
31. Oct 2003 10:24
i win the guessing compo.
31. Oct 2003 10:27
lets rephrase that - i think i guessed those right, that are currently in my list. like 4 tunes leave me clueless so far, because i prolly didnt hear of the people before. =)
31. Oct 2003 10:59
dlz, sboy will win the guessing compo, hes probably guessed every author :D almost every :P
31. Oct 2003 12:45
jammer, but what if theres some first-timers attending the compo? =)
31. Oct 2003 15:27
Dalezy, what about tune 16?... Any clues? :D
31. Oct 2003 15:46
guessor, yep. want me to email my guess to you? =)
31. Oct 2003 16:30
course, youre sure you know my email? :)
31. Oct 2003 17:12
dalezy, you have to know these first-timers then heheh :D:D:D to win :D I probably know whos the author of 16th tune according to the recent posts and connection between name of tune and authors name :P
31. Oct 2003 17:36
jammer, well, that wasnt the hard part. =) but i recognized some typical elements in it, tho its been done in a different player/editor this time. =)
31. Oct 2003 17:40
No it wasnt.
31. Oct 2003 17:46
maybe i got fooled by the sounds, so i thought it would be a different player. damn you #16.
31. Oct 2003 18:19
But a nice tune overall, isnt it?... Something like Rocksteady Crew in Shanghai.
31. Oct 2003 18:39
im pretty sure i`ve correctly recognized all the authors so far, maybe except for that `Shining Hour` tune.
the new best guesser
31. Oct 2003 23:10
My god, its a crime not to recognize author of Shining Hour :D:D:D especially knowing his tunes inspired by Madonnas style :D this this characteristic echoed lead practised often recently :)
01. Nov 2003 00:29
I think the new best guesser was pulling our legs right now.
the bestest new best guesser
01. Nov 2003 10:06
the bestest new best guesser: it can`t have been! i`m absolutely certain that `the new best guesser` guy is a honest, truthful person and he wouldn`t have fooled us.
even bester than the bestest new best guesser
01. Nov 2003 13:40
That Shining Hour tune is here to fool us; it was made in a style of somebody else, just to let us see that anonymous voting is still done by guessing the authors! :)
01. Nov 2003 14:10
17th tune added. Enjoy!
01. Nov 2003 17:18
The plan would have worked out, if it wasnt for the pesky No-XS!!!!!!
01. Nov 2003 17:46
Ez Lady, tune #17 is _very_ easy, isnt it? (Also one of my favourites so far, by the way.)
The Master of Guessing Arts
01. Nov 2003 18:11
sb, sounds like kjell nordbo gone tim follin. =)
think i got a guess, tho im not really sure, heh.
01. Nov 2003 19:07
I think some people should be ruled out of the guessing compo by default and their score should be made a reference measure.
01. Nov 2003 19:30
Dalezy, take a peek into players code. Its unique enough to leave no doubts, methinks :)
02. Nov 2003 14:53
4 more tunes coming up! Stay tuned! ;-)
02. Nov 2003 15:23
02. Nov 2003 15:30
Still 7 days to deadline so dontcha worry dude ;-)
02. Nov 2003 16:00
WOOOOOW! Tune 18 certainly something the Ministy of Sound should add to their album :) Brilliant C64 trance/dance anthem.
02. Nov 2003 16:03
Im almost sure Ill recognize "MUmaid" (great tune) and "Final Dance" authors correctly, 100% sure in "OBoy" case - and "Strong headache" isnt even worth trying. :I
02. Nov 2003 16:23
I love MUMaid too, especially the stuff after 2:40. Grooovy tune!
02. Nov 2003 23:33
MUMaid is quite allrite indeed.. good spirit!!.. nice swing tempo too, always works.. ;)
03. Nov 2003 05:06
The thing I enjoy most is trying to guess who did which tune. This is great. I bet theres a lot of guys (and gal) out there polishing tunes for last minute submission. Cant wait to hear them, eh... Some really complex melodic structures to contemplate this year. Amazing what some of us can do with 3 synthesized voices. I was disappointed to not hear any digital drums, tho....
03. Nov 2003 07:53
MUmaid = funny name, as I interpreted it as emu-made. :)
03. Nov 2003 10:23
Dane, and there is a very cool story around it ;-) Im sure you will enjoy it ;-)
03. Nov 2003 12:59
Happy Birthday Roman. God, youre old. ;)
03. Nov 2003 13:07
03. Nov 2003 13:11
03. Nov 2003 13:21
03. Nov 2003 13:46
Awh, Ive had a headache all morning and over lunch. Im not sure if it is due to the weather or listening to certain compo entries. :-o
03. Nov 2003 15:05
Anders, maybe coz you were composing your own all weekend? ;-)
03. Nov 2003 15:12
Happy Birthday Roman! Will you get *creamed* at your birthday party? :D
03. Nov 2003 15:54
BTW, O Boy is something I call great stuff, eh! :P
03. Nov 2003 16:42
Happy Birthday from me too!! :D
03. Nov 2003 18:30
there is no new tunes today or maybe CreaMD went to a heavy party ? ;) ... 100 lat ;)
03. Nov 2003 19:15
Got another tune, it will be up soon, just gimme some time. Anyway thanx for forum and e-mail wishes everybody.
03. Nov 2003 21:33
2 more tunes added.
03. Nov 2003 23:13
5 days to go and I think weve already got a better field of competitors than last year. I can see many of last years participants returning to the scene of the crime so to speak, and its obvious things (and musicians) have improved a lot over the past 12 months. Congratulations, CreamD - good call of you to organize this!
03. Nov 2003 23:16
Pretty sure this will be one of the best music-packs ever! So much styles, such good tunes! If only someone would a very MON-like tune and a Matt Grey thingie, this collection would be complete :))
03. Nov 2003 23:20
And here is one promise..and maybe a bit of background on how I make music: Next year, ill promise not to make a tune in 1 day... i regret having entered with my tune after completing it in 1 day... The last years Ive been making 1 day music... Next year.....
03. Nov 2003 23:30
No-Regrets, people out there seem to like it.
Dane, concerning that "Emu made"... Dont you know that Emusuck? :D
03. Nov 2003 23:36
Dont tell me. Tell the musician behind the tune. I suspect you can start searching in Belgium.
03. Nov 2003 23:50
No-Excess, good call. I will remember that as well.
maybe Dalezy, maybe not
03. Nov 2003 23:52
 Thanx Intensity ;-). Yeah I got creamed at my birthday party. I finally walked out of the closet. Here is the complete story: the story
.  Thanx Dane. And there is still some good stuff to come if everything goes allright ;-). Yupz the overall quality have risen and compo atmosphere aswell. With far less work for me on entry list updates I quite start to enjoy it too ;-).
04. Nov 2003 08:22
NoXS: you touched a tremendous point, I usually compose tunes in one day only like you, generally the last one :|
04. Nov 2003 09:14
I visited a concert last night and got some inspiration for own music. However, Im afraid SID music in that genre would be categorized as "bad rip" if it ever went into a collection. (Peter Br?tzmann Chicago Tentet :-)
04. Nov 2003 13:41
CreaMD: ROFL!! What the ....?! You are REALLY Creamy! And this is the creamiest Competition I have seen. Everything around me is getting creamy. AHHH, I have got a CREAM-SHOCK (not from behind, BTW)!
04. Nov 2003 13:42
uhm.. sorry, back to normal...
04. Nov 2003 13:45
Not really hard to recognize who has made the tune "Lichtblick" :)
04. Nov 2003 14:00
Yes is isnt.
04. Nov 2003 14:00
I have to confess the 2 latest tunes Ive made were both done in a day each. Im too impatient to spend more time than that nowadays.
04. Nov 2003 14:23
Or you just know how and what to do. Less doubts more straightforward and fruitful creative process.
04. Nov 2003 17:02
> Dane, No-Excess: Well, if youd only count the hours on the JCH editor timer, Im pretty sure that not many of us have surpassed the day mark often. I only did it once, with Love.sid. Of course, in realtime, its kinda different...
04. Nov 2003 17:10
Vip, I know what you mean. With doing a tune in a day I mean putting about 6-7 hours into it. Unfortunately, that JCH tmer isnt very reliable when you start screwing around with swapping players and stuff. :)
04. Nov 2003 18:59
: really not? ;)
04. Nov 2003 21:32
Funny how people suddenly appear from nowhere right after their tunes are submitted...
04. Nov 2003 21:43
hmm ... why not? ;) There was no time for writing here.. we had to compose our tunes! ;)
04. Nov 2003 21:51
04. Nov 2003 21:58
Dane, Im not much of a player swapper, so I cant tell much about that, but I do tend to cheat sometimes... there are a few tunes where the editor crashed after a few good hours of editing and then, after being extremely annoyed for a while, I just sat back down and recreated the entire worktune from scratch. Suddenly, that 06:12 timer shrinks to 00:31 for no apparent reason ;) and I can go on. I dont know if these happened to other composers, but I do think most will have had similar experiences...
04. Nov 2003 22:24
Vip, next time your editor crashes I might be able to assist you, unless you accidentally zerofill the memory. It has happened for me too, yes, time and time again. (Very interesting fact: Listen&Learn was in fact the 4th version of the same tune as the 3 previous versions all crashed or got eaten up by bad disks)
04. Nov 2003 23:06
Yeah, doing more then one backup after some decent patterns nowadays.. really lost fine tunes because of bad disks and power failures.. Life is so unfare sometimes.. btw Im not much of a guesser but I hope the best tune is yet to come :)
05. Nov 2003 00:13
vip, i never redid a tune from scratch after the player crashed, because i only took this as bad omen .. or maybe i just forgot about the whole tune and starting something else then.
but i got a serious problem with the working time counter in jch; i feel cheated, because i listen to sequences over and over until i continue doing the tune, thus the counter might end up somewhere in the 20hours mark, while it ends after 3 hours at some tunes. =)
05. Nov 2003 00:15
mine englisk be bad toodayh :/
05. Nov 2003 00:28
I know that feeling all too well - one tune I wrote in Music Assembler kept crashing, until I realised it was the 0s in the voice data that was causing the problem... The worst one was a tune that appeared to save to disk OK, but then could not be loaded back in due to a disk error. :(
05. Nov 2003 00:41
05. Nov 2003 00:45
i think theres still a certain contrib missing. id better watch out for a certain scandinavian guy and make him submit something. =)
05. Nov 2003 01:34
I wonder if you mean the same scandinavian guy I was trying to convince to do a tune. A finnish one (and his name aint Otto)? :)
05. Nov 2003 01:34
Uh, I mean Finnish, with a capital F... Hehe
05. Nov 2003 08:22
Nitpick: Finland is a Nordic country, not a Scandinavian country (although a great deal of the inhabitants speak Swedish as one of their first three languages, one might argue it is one of the Scandinavian groupies).
05. Nov 2003 08:29
Beginning to deeply hate the guessincompo... >:|
>SB: Funny how people suddenly appear from nowhere right after their tunes are submitted...
Are you really sure, SB?
05. Nov 2003 12:10
Mmmh, Id also like see an entry from a certain groupmate from a certain music group, but hes quite busy at the moment. Ah well.
Ez lady: I know that one, too. Often, I start doing a tune, do some stuff for about an hour or two and then, I either begin listening to it for a couple of hours to see what needs to be added, or I turn off the tv and go do something else. As a result, when I get back to doing something, the timer has suddenly added an hour or two, three - not quite reliable, that timer, is it? :)
05. Nov 2003 12:11
Yeah, pretty sure, although not in your case, my Italian (ha, this time I got it right) friend. You wont submit anything until November the 8th, most probably. :)
05. Nov 2003 12:14
And dont worry Dane, these days Ive got a few tricks to prevent most crashes from being lethal. Whenever the player routine gives up, for example, I just freeze the c64 with the cartridge and and unfreeze. For some reason, that helps. Other times, I need to turn the disk drive off/on to stop it from doing something mean. Ok, those are weird actions, I know, but they work and its been a long time since my latest fatal crash...
05. Nov 2003 12:27
Updated Archnial.. or is it Archnail?
05. Nov 2003 12:33
SB:obviously, I cant talkbout it ;)
05. Nov 2003 12:54
That "scandinavian guy"... Im puzzled. Whom are you talking about? A.D.? A.C.? A.S.? E.S.? T.J.?
05. Nov 2003 13:31
So it was Archnial. Updated.
05. Nov 2003 13:35
Got 24th tune but it doesnt work yet, waiting for response of the author.
05. Nov 2003 13:56
mh, bs, &c - think of someone who also took part last year. those who visited the lcp this year might know who im talking about.
damn, i hate to talk like that, but some people seem to be picky about infos about people that already took part or not. =)
05. Nov 2003 14:04
Ah. M.N., I presume.
How I hate picky people :)
05. Nov 2003 15:39
:-/ 24th tune added.
05. Nov 2003 15:56
Post no. 342 contains bad news.
05. Nov 2003 16:14
For a contrast we needed a tune which sounds like my first ever tune made on C64 (10+ years ago) done in Future ComposerII which was released by Beastie Boys... Ah good old memories..
05. Nov 2003 16:19
I know some decent Future Composer tunes, and "Welcome Home" definitely isnt one of them. Thats what I wanted to say, I kinda like that nostalgic FC sound too :)
05. Nov 2003 16:39
Why does Sidplay produce higher volume output on sidchannels with filter ? It annoys me, I had to lower the SR setting in a lamulator before I sent the tune to somebody. And now when playing it back on the C64 I can hardly hear the filter channel.... bah!
05. Nov 2003 16:47
Which version of Sidplay?
Big and Bouncy
05. Nov 2003 16:50
Sidplay2/w win32 version (Oct 20 2002)
05. Nov 2003 17:07
Grab yourself a new version, then (released a month ago or so). If it does not help - wait for reSID 0.15 to be implemented in Sidplay2/w (hopefully soon).
05. Nov 2003 17:32
Big Bender: Ive had the same problem with my tune. Unfortunately sidplay isnt perfect... yet.
05. Nov 2003 17:35
Big Bender: Ive had the same problem with my tune. Unfortunately sidplay isnt perfect... yet.
05. Nov 2003 17:50
woah... who is still using future composer nowadays? ;) there are few nice tunes made out there with that tracker (or routine -> Tel ,Deeneen). anyway there are a lot of those from in demos/unknown (HVSC) which are a lot better than #24
05. Nov 2003 19:28
Hey, I can clearly recognize #24! Its was done by Jeroen Tel for sure! ;-)))
05. Nov 2003 21:01
Dont be so sure, could be some long-lost tune by Deenen as well.
06. Nov 2003 08:32
I hate FC with all my powers! In the past, I used an horrible +4 converter version, but, having not SIDchip, the resulting tunes play in a very ugly way on a real machine. Though innocent, the FC becames sign of lameness, cant kill this ghost behind my head. BTW, Im still here attempting to understand the bassline of "Welcome home!" entry... :O
06. Nov 2003 11:06
Heh. I was actually considering looking into FC the other day, but maybe one should have a go at Sound Monitor instead (an idea to do a really retro compo only using that editor/player?)
06. Nov 2003 11:37
Naah retro is a word which is not welcome on this site ;-) Except of Retro Replay ;-) Btw. First year of this compo was Goat Tracker only. The compo had served the good thing and helped to spread the word about this superb cross-plattform editor. Thanx to this tool created by Lasse Cadaver ??rni the scene gained few exceptionally good musicians like Smalltown Boy, Jammer, Sidder etc. Anyway added tune #25 and updated #24 (it was bugged, according to author). Anders if you want, use FC its not a bad editor if its in good hands. Just enter the compo with your creation done in whatever editor you like.
06. Nov 2003 11:38
ah yeah No-XS and GH and Reyn Ouwehand also used goat-tracker, dont know if they still do.
06. Nov 2003 11:47
Ah, now #24 has a bassline...
06. Nov 2003 11:56
#25. easy task. rockstar! :D
06. Nov 2003 12:07
my workmates already humming along some of the catchier tunes that got contributed for the compo .. got scared for a moment
06. Nov 2003 12:09
Dalezy: let him vote, then! :D
06. Nov 2003 12:12
Dalezy, and now lets assimilate him! B64RG! Btw. I just got E-mail that another tune should arrive this evening. I look forward to hear.
06. Nov 2003 12:17
Dalezy: let him vote, then! :D
06. Nov 2003 13:20
CreaMD: Sidder has used Goat Tracker only twice, and as soon as I had told him how to do a toneportamento in JCH Newplayer (thanks to Dalezy on this occasion ;>) his interest in GT ceased to exist.
M. Snowball Toy
06. Nov 2003 13:51
Ok, "old-skool" or "80ties" or "H?lsbeck-style" then? But I see if there is no point promoting 15 year old software compared to promoting spanking new. As soon as I found a melody to my bass line, I submit (past or future tense? :-) my tune.
06. Nov 2003 14:47
Why promote spanking new software when good old utilities like the JCH editor works well enough? :)
06. Nov 2003 15:49
Coz SidDuzzIt?!? ;-)
06. Nov 2003 16:01
Anyway, added a 26th tune, just listening to it.. its like a mild breeze in a hot summer, especially when one has a big ape sitting on his shoulders right now. I think I will return to bed or something... Fantastic tune. Some sounds sound a little bit less worked out, but anyway its fantastic. And the first minute is there just to fool us or something? ;-)) Anyway I really like this one! ;-))
06. Nov 2003 16:06
Yeah, I like this one (still listening to #26 ;-), it has surprises in itself that?s why I like it. I don?t know I can?t help myself this is one of the most original arranges in this compo.
06. Nov 2003 16:08
And yeah Ive noticed those harmonic glitches too.. it would be great if the author played with this one for more hours ;-) (still listening to #26 ;-).
06. Nov 2003 16:09
Now its your turn SmartBoy! ;-)
06. Nov 2003 16:42
So far only 2 tunes got a maximum of points from me, but it seems that "Cybersoap" will get it as well. After a huge load of painful mistakes, finally something enjoyable, with lots of interesting sounds and a good melody. Its ringing in my ears still, and all that just after the first listening.
06. Nov 2003 17:05
The best thing is: I have no idea who composed it. My only hope is that the author posts something here this evening, like it happened a several times :D
06. Nov 2003 17:10
06. Nov 2003 17:36
A big ape? Like those who keep scratching their private areas all the time and say "ook-ook" when they are tired of doing the other thing?
06. Nov 2003 17:47
All right... After half an hour of constant listening I HAVE an idea, but that idea is quite ridiculous. The composer Im thinking of has never worked on JCH Newplayer (not to my knowledge at least), and I doubt if he would participate in SC3 at all. Its only the style that fits him (bass beginning with $51 and unfiltered, fat arpeggios, melodic approach).
Hmm. Anyone knows who am I talking about? :)
06. Nov 2003 17:55
06. Nov 2003 18:20
Cybersoap I like. Once again we have a Sidcompo with some of the best tunes made in JCH. Coincidence, I think not.
06. Nov 2003 18:25
Im completly lost... on this discussion.. with some of the tunes... and my own music
06. Nov 2003 18:27
Dane...the sounds in that tune, can be done in Goattracker also.. I thought it was goattracker even?.. But then again; i was lost...
06. Nov 2003 18:31
Im sure the instruments in several of the best tunes can be done in different editors...but still theyre not, which just affirms my own belief in JCH, as well as my admiration for the guys who know how to use it. Maybe its time to start writing docs for NP25.g0 and get it out in the open soon enough. :)
06. Nov 2003 18:40
Dane. but then its quite interesting to hear the favourite style of the best JCH editor users ;-) With exceptions like VIP or the author of #26 tune, of course ;-)
06. Nov 2003 18:41
No-XS - yeah, I had thought that "Cybersoap" was Goat Tracker made too. For a while, until I opened it in notepad ;)
Dane - Im afraid that your tendency to overestimate JCH-made tunes might influence your voting. Assure me that it will not.
06. Nov 2003 18:43
yea, np25.g0 bitte!
06. Nov 2003 18:46
smboy, but notepad doesnt work on all the tunes. like celebrating samhain f.e. - siddasm doesnt do any wonder to my knowledge about the author and certain routines as well, other than their name is explicitly engraved in the file =)
06. Nov 2003 18:54
CoupleoDMCnSidduzzitnSiwindah tunz on ya!!! ;-)
06. Nov 2003 18:57
Dalezy, in case of tune #26 it works well enough - theres a "PLAYER BY JCH... MUSIC BY YOU!" clearly visible at $1020.
06. Nov 2003 18:58
it`s very easy to find out who`s the author of the 26th tune -take a look at its code, it says "music by You". hadn`t heard of You till today, so it appears that the c64 scene has got a fresh, talented blood - the tune is just yummy!
06. Nov 2003 19:03
OMG, why everyone uses pseudonyms.
06. Nov 2003 19:34
Smallbrown Toy, I can assure you Im voting for the tunes I like the most, not the editor I like the most. This wouldnt really be a competition in that case.
06. Nov 2003 19:35
sboy, it wasnt hard flr #26, but i remember you pointed out at that samhain tune before. found it hard to see anything in there.
06. Nov 2003 19:45
Dane, youre known for your hostile attitude towards Goat Tracker users, and youve just admitted that you admire JCH users; therefore Im sorry, but I dont believe you. When I asked you to assure me etc., it was just rhetorical, dont take it literally next time.
06. Nov 2003 20:09
Dalezy, heres a hint then - copy some bytes of "Samhain" players code as an ASCII string into a buffer. Then, search the current version of HVSC for files containing that string. Voila :)
06. Nov 2003 20:10
SB: thanks for guessing, it really isnt my first tune in JCH, and (hopefully) not the only style of music i can do :)
06. Nov 2003 20:26
Whoever you are: congratulations. 9 points from me, as I mentioned before, and a sure place in my top 5 (although I still hesitate whether it should be 2nd or 3rd place :>).
06. Nov 2003 21:01
06. Nov 2003 21:58
06. Nov 2003 22:00
Smalltown Boy, let me make something clear. I was posting about what editor I like. I was posting about tunes I like. Do not confuse this with a hostile attitude towards users. Why I think its great some people also end up using the JCH-editor is because it means they might join me in the battle to stretch the limits of that particular system. This also motivates me to maybe get my own hacks userfriendly and spread. My observation on good tunes of this competition made in that editor is of course subjective, however. I like those tunes. Whoever made them have my respect. And right now, the only common denominator is that theyre all made in the same editor.
06. Nov 2003 22:01
Big Poof, thanx for not going out of anonymity ;-)) SB: btw. I think having guessing compo wouldnt be that fun as it seemed from the begining when one can use this method. I think Ill concentrate on other things. You would be probably winner anyway. Whaddaya say? I hope I didnt spoil the fun for ya ;-)
06. Nov 2003 22:03
CreamD - I dont think the JCH-system guides you stylewise, really. Thats probably just a coincidence. The fact that Vibrants started out using it is probably something that has had an impact, but musicians like Danko, Deek and JCH have shown that there are possibilities and a great range of what can be done. Maybe its just a case of musicians taking up an editor that a musician they have been inspired by has been using.
06. Nov 2003 22:03
Btw, what happened to that idea of a cover-compo?
06. Nov 2003 22:20
Ah yeah, how could I forget Tomas, one of my favourite musicians! ;-). Cover-compo Im thinking about it practically everyday, but I didnt find any cool way how to make it attractive for most musicians so they will joing and make a cover of the selected tune I plan to write an E-mail to all participating musicians together with jury-letter (instructions how to vote etc.) I will try to formulate some ideas there and ask you for your input on how it could be organised.
06. Nov 2003 22:25
seems like im practising stream of consciousness writing technique lately is it because i was on hours in cinema lately i dont know but i should start to use punctuation properly and keep stylistics more clear
06. Nov 2003 22:59
It seems Im ending up with composing in NoteWorthy Composer (a music notation program for Windows) and then transcribing my own works into the SID-based editor. Hows that for a change? :-)
06. Nov 2003 23:03
Anders, heh, sounds entertaining. I had a period when I composed worktunes and small jingles in Fasttracker and then transcribed them to c64 so I know precisely how fun it is.
06. Nov 2003 23:10
sb, wont work for me. either i find every tune in the hvsid or just samhain. anyway, ill better stick to the actual guessing compo, not knowing compo. =)
06. Nov 2003 23:26
Creamd: OK, we can skip the guessing compo, although only if:
- Dalezy agrees
- you agree to send me a full list of authors as soon as Im finished with voting (I swear I wont show it to anyone); I wont stand another few weeks wondering :)
06. Nov 2003 23:28
 Oh, so one of the C64 musicians (except Sidder and myself) knows and uses NoteWorthy Composer? How nice.
06. Nov 2003 23:35
What is it about? How do you use it guys? I have midislaves here but I actually didnt touch them since some 1-2 year they feel quite neglected Im sure. Btw. 27th tune added.
06. Nov 2003 23:44
Yes, Ive been using it since 1998ish and of course do both smaller and larger arrangements - mostly wind music, but other things as well. If your goal is to get notation on paper, I find it a good idea to work in that form from the beginning. In this case, I used my MIDI keyboard to record something into the music notation program. Then I fine tuned my recording and when satisfied, by hand transfer it into the SID editor. Of course, if I had a MIDI interface for my C64 and good software (does any of the major editors support MIDI in?), I could do it directly that way.
06. Nov 2003 23:50
For me, JCHs editor has always been the editor of choice because of the ease with which it can be used, not so much the people that composed on it before. JCHs editor is really comfortable, and Jens made sure to provide as much flexibility as possible in several sound-wise areas. I think people such as Metal and Drax have shown its flexibility, as for me - Im slowly transgressing into something else, something weird (no, purely soundwise, not like *that* :)... experimenting and stuff (CreamD might agree with the experiment thing). Oh well, well see how it all evolves...
Vip, not VIP (who would be a Crest graphician from long ago)
07. Nov 2003 00:11
Added tune 28. Sorry for tha VIP , Vip.
07. Nov 2003 09:55
Last few weeks, my composing is more like maths; since I convert from almost any format into Turbo Assembler code... It takes some getting used to, but I feel I have a point to prove.....
07. Nov 2003 09:57
And I am very curious who/what will be entering this weekend!
07. Nov 2003 10:01
Apropo, but when the deadline falls _exactly_? (..::day|time::..)
07. Nov 2003 10:16
After midnight, but it might also be unoficially extended until the end of weekend if anyone asks me for that.
07. Nov 2003 10:38
No-XS, interesting to see Im not the only one stupid enough to convert all my packed tunes into sourcecode. It really does take some geting use to, but the possibilities you then have of optimizing the music routine are tremendous.
07. Nov 2003 11:15
29th tune added.
07. Nov 2003 11:39
Midnight between November 7 and 8 or midnight between November 8 or 9?
07. Nov 2003 11:47
between nov. 8 - 9
07. Nov 2003 11:52
argh, it was so easy to find out who did cybersoap.i recognized a certain recipe in the tune. (and i guess only the composer knows what im talking about, if he remembers a certain discussion :)
07. Nov 2003 12:13
Arghjhh what timezone are you talking about CreaMD?
(would like to have the whole weekend to finish it :P)
07. Nov 2003 12:34
Akira: your nick is Japanese but you should be an European, right? ;)
07. Nov 2003 12:53
Dalezy, hat off. I still have no clue. :(
07. Nov 2003 12:56
Are we talking CET? Or is the deadline reached when it is midnight in my special timezone? (:
pi, planning to take part without having audio-equipment (cables etc.)
07. Nov 2003 13:09
Well, CET I guess, in order to avoid driving crazy...
07. Nov 2003 13:44
"Dark Eagle" damagely r0x2 from 01:24!
07. Nov 2003 13:50
Hmm CET of course, like this page. If you want to know what time is it here in Nitra just check www.mojanitra.sk there are realtime flash clocks running ;-))) Anyway as I said, if yuo have problems with finishing of your tune send me an E-mail. This is not a party compo, the deadline is more about when I start to prepare voting pack than actual time of submission closing. You can theoretically send tune until the vote pack is online. ;-)
07. Nov 2003 15:02
Trying as hard as I could, I found only one realtime flash clock at that page. Where are the others?
Ant/Aardwark Designs :)
07. Nov 2003 15:22
Good idea. Now Nitra (among the other top 10 largest cities in Slovakia) have been added to the database where I work.
07. Nov 2003 16:02
I hope you dont work at military secret terror ops department then ;-)
07. Nov 2003 16:06
Entry 30 added.
07. Nov 2003 16:17
It is a travel related site, and there is military information about Italy, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Greenland and British Indian Ocean Territory in the db. However I cant confirm nor deny about particular secrets.
07. Nov 2003 19:09
Roman, have you finally decided to cancel the guessing compo or not? Its vital for me to know ;)
07. Nov 2003 20:23
Oooooh! Its almost over! I wanna vote now!!! IMO, some really good entries, some really crap ones, some average, and 1 or 2 unbelievable sonical compositions that I really cant stop listening to...
Belated birthday wishes Roman! ;)
08. Nov 2003 09:42
Ive still got promised at least one more tune which is to be delivered on monday morning so the big thing (voting) will start on monday right after I get the last tune into the pack. I will try to prepare the rest of the stuff in advance so the fun can continue ;-) If anyone of you needs few more hours you have them.
08. Nov 2003 09:56
Another person asked me to extend deadline. So here you are. I only hope we wont end with 50 tunes ;-))
08. Nov 2003 09:58
Guessing compo what other thinks? Do you want guessing compo? ;-) Btw. sorry MTR Ive accidentally erased your post about voting I hope you dont mind.
08. Nov 2003 10:10
No-no! I really hope in 50 tunes instead! :D
08. Nov 2003 10:37
Okay, so 3 more tunes coming up in about half an hour.
08. Nov 2003 12:07
SB : sorry... your method shouldnt work in this case. I assure ye.
the grand samhain celebrator
08. Nov 2003 15:38
08. Nov 2003 18:04
#35 added. Cute minimalistic stuff. I like it.
08. Nov 2003 20:00
eh... #35 starts really after 2:30 ;) nice , very clear sounds but so boring..... and long.....
08. Nov 2003 21:29
08. Nov 2003 21:30
Stay tuned! ;-)
08. Nov 2003 21:56
maybe we reach the 50 tonight ;)
08. Nov 2003 22:25
maybe we reach the 50 tonight ;)
08. Nov 2003 22:35
Aye. I might make it :P
08. Nov 2003 22:39
i want to vote! ;)
08. Nov 2003 22:42
Lets see how many tunes will still arive until its 23:59 ;)
08. Nov 2003 22:59
ok, guys there is only some hour to submit tunes... ;)
09. Nov 2003 00:05
Ok, so past midnight. I guess some latecomers will drop in by Sunday (or dropped in right before midnight anyway).
09. Nov 2003 00:09
My highly reasonable self begs for preselection next year. Quality, not quantity. (Still I think that the overall level is higher than in 2002, but the amount of Metal-Warrior-clone tunes scares me a bit.)
09. Nov 2003 00:26
First a semifinal competition, where top 5 make it to another compo with new tunes?
09. Nov 2003 03:39
It is my humble opinion that anyone who put in a special effort to compete here, in an online competition where entries are usually scarce anyway, will get his/her chance, period. Please, no preselection crap, okay? As the french say, les gouts ne se discutent pas or, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... in other words, the tunes that get preselected out by this or that person may very well be cool tunes for another person, making the concept of preselection pointless.
Preselection is something for those lamers who think they know what everyone likes, or what the benchmark is supposed to be... (sorry for being graphic, but I think preselection is something that reeks of self-absorbed elitism)
09. Nov 2003 10:28
How long are you willing to run an online SID compo? One idea would be to have monthly (or weekly?) finals, and after four-six months, each winner of the monthly finals would be judged. Of course, it would require the entries to be kept hidden until each monthly deadline, and only a counter telling how many entries are in (or otherwise a decent but not superb entry may find it being inferior compared to *this* months entries and stalled for a month).
09. Nov 2003 11:28
Dunno... I think its all fine this way.. Btw, last year I organized an Airwolf competition, and I got 0 (zero/null/nothing/no) entries! :)
09. Nov 2003 12:55
#36 is really danceable. =) and not too hard to recognize either.
09. Nov 2003 13:01
Uhmmm...Creamd, no new entries? So, can we listen to the whole stuff again in order to prepare a well balanced voting?
09. Nov 2003 13:15
I guess CreaMD is still sleeping :)
09. Nov 2003 13:19
Uhm, Rayne, if Roman is still sleeping we have 2 causes: he watched the moon eclipse all night long, or he awaited for new surprising outoftimed sid tunes.
09. Nov 2003 13:33
I think its the first cause, another compotune was sent in yesterday before midnight.
09. Nov 2003 13:52
Great! 36 tunes!! i found some fresh tunes in this compo!
09. Nov 2003 15:31
 Preselection? Not necessary nobody forces you to listen to tunes in any order etc. You had time to listen to them for 30 days so I think preselection is not so necessary as in party compos where more than 1 hour of continuous music can kill all the fun ;-)  Finals? ;-) Hehe cool idea maybe for future  Presel is in the eye of the beholder, but is reasonable on parties.  Once I had idea about SID-parade, maybe Ill do it. As far as this compo is concerned 4 weeks is maximum. Once I thought 2 weeks should be enough but that was 2 years ago ;-).  Yeah I was away ;-) at least it had created a little suspense heheh ;-).  Reason was that I rather choose to stay with my fiancee in the warm bed than refreshing my mailbox all the time ;-)) Especially when the voting starts sometimes on monday (depens on how fast Ill prepare voting pack. Okay so here we go 5 more tunes to come in about half an hour and thats probably still not the end ;-) Stay toned up ;-)
09. Nov 2003 15:36
Someone should get CreaMD a laptop, so can be with his fiancee and do his net business at the same time. ;-)
09. Nov 2003 16:23
So here comes another dynamite batch. Enjoy ;-)) 41 entries so far ;-)
09. Nov 2003 16:32
Amazing. We seemed to have seen more entries this year, compared to the last two years. This compo is a complete success. :)
09. Nov 2003 16:45
 Vincent, lack of preselection, in case there are 30 entries or more, may discourage people from voting. Not everyone is hardcore and devoted enough to stand attentive listening to such number of tunes in one go.
Preselection reeks of elitism, indeed. But, although I consider SC3 a great and important event, even I am feeling severe disappointment, and Im losing my enthusiasm, once confronted with reality, represented by entries such as "Strong Headache". Therefore Im worried about the audience voting. Will people excitedly send their rankings when faced with contributions consisting of nothing musically? Will the voting be reliable if there are so many entries to judge?
I think the following solution might work: jury voting would come up first, serving as a preselection; then, entries from places 1-15 or 1-20 would take part in an audience voting. Just a rough idea. In vain, though, because Roman does not seem interested in implementing it ;)
09. Nov 2003 16:54
Short Metamorphosis and Dropping The Dishes rock. Wouldnt be ruled out in a possible preselection, thats for sure ;)
09. Nov 2003 16:57
Hey thats emotional blackmail!! ;-)) Anyway yeah audience voting is not so reliable Ive learned that lesson many times. Thats why there will also jury voting this year. I look forward to see how it ends ;-) I dont expect very different results in first 20 places anyway ;-)
09. Nov 2003 16:59
I dont get it... this isnt the eurovision song contest.. Maybe the author of Strong Headache took his first steps at sid composing, and will be the future for sid music? My guess is; its not so much if there will be a 100% pure, good voting.. A top 5 is easily made, and we should mind if a tune is 12th or 13th..
Well...thats just my thought..
Btw: Lost_Memories smells like a cover..at least the lead sounds at 1:48 like "Earth&Fire - Weekend", or maybe you all recognize the cover from Scooter... ? :)
09. Nov 2003 17:02
Maybe he didnt do that on purpose?? I had that once; i made a tune combining a lead from Reyn Ouwehand and Barry White.. really cool also :))
09. Nov 2003 17:10
btw... post  i mean: its not so bad if there wont be a 100% pure voting, and dont mind if a tune is 12th or 13th... sigh... need more coffee
09. Nov 2003 17:14
Yeah, drink another coffee...:D
09. Nov 2003 17:18
41+ entries is very impressive, and especially compared to parties where you can actually get prizes for your tunes. Well done all who have taken part!
09. Nov 2003 17:22
Whats the point of competing if someone is then going to decide your entry is not good enough to get through pre-selection? People could have GUESSED that England, France, New Zealand and Australia would be in the final four of the Rugby World Cup, but that doesnt mean they should stop the other countries from entering...
09. Nov 2003 17:24
I always like to compare making sidmusic to rugby..
09. Nov 2003 17:29
Anyway I hope you all are having fun and thats what is important on this compo. The fact that there will be few more cool tunes in peoples playlists ;-). That they will enjoy some cool fat and fresh stuff ;-)
09. Nov 2003 17:37
 Marc, it of course isnt the Eurovision song contest. Its something of a much greater importance, at least for me :D. Thats why I want the compo to be as impressive as possible, not just in terms of quantity, but also quality... Find a better solution than introducing preselection and Ill be the first to support it.
09. Nov 2003 17:41
Ah well...wouldnt want to miss out on (at least) 41 new sids; to hear what people can do, and compare ...and to know what has to be done next compo, in order to have a chance! :)
09. Nov 2003 17:46
Its a pity we cant raise this much interest in an online competition for graphics or demos. Or maybe we can?
09. Nov 2003 17:48
Watch C64sks GFX Compo II ;-))) Organised by Jailbird of course.
09. Nov 2003 18:21
Lets hope for 41+ gfx entries then.
09. Nov 2003 18:31
kudos for the author of "dropping the dishes". mighty ideas.
09. Nov 2003 20:43
[466+470]Bull. First off, preselection is NOT reasonable on parties. Ive been at Wired, where some pretty nice pictures were preselected out because the jury thought they were ripped. Noone bothered to actually prove this, even when one of the contestants showed his genuine pencil sketches and detailed workstages on Grafx2. He never got to enter, but a f*cking Calvin and Hobbes scan did enter the contest. I tried my best calming the scener with the cool drawing down, but I couldnt blame him... if I was preselected out like that, Id go nuts too.
Other example: Chimera/Halcyon. Imo, a fantastic demo to watch grow and build. It got disqualified at the party because of unknown reasons. Well whoever has done that, f*ck him.
Other example: Live Evil. Looked mainstream enough, but oh boy, when that lame jazz music came up, some people were disgusted by it because it didnt satiate *their* idea of a mainstream demo, hence it was voted way down. If some of those jokers wouldve been in the jury, it wouldnt have competed at all. And to me, its part of my pc demo top 10 of all time.
Other example: Ed. Many dont understand his music. In my opinion, its great stuff. Yet, hes likely to be preselected out because his first 60 seconds might sound like a sidcrash to some.
Other example: Farbrausch. I honestly didnt like their productions at first (the Product etc), so if I were on a jury, Id have them preselected out (Note that my opinion has greatly changed, what since greatness like Poem to a Horse, Candytron and the popular demo).
Seeing a pattern here? My taste is not your taste, nor is it anyone elses taste. Its MY unique taste, just like you have a unique taste. And imposing these unique tastes as a filter is... insane, because youre likely to deprive people of something they *could* have liked.
Its just as with modern art. Some things I like, some things I dont - but should that be a criterion to say Hey buster, go bore somebody somewhere else? I think NOT.
Everyone who entered the compo has made an effort, spent a few to many hours to create an original tune. EVERYONE. And a few people are then going to deny some their effort? On what grounds? I think all entries deserve their place in the spotlight. And yes, if that means listening to a lot of tunes, then that means listening to a lot of tunes. If people cant bring up the patience to listen to them all, cant take the time to form an opinion about every entry, then they shouldnt vote. As simple as that.
In my early stages in the scene, I always was happy to have had a chance to be judged and learn from it. I made -in my eyes- crap and I still do, but at least from the criticisms of others, I found out what I could do to get a better result - for myself. If I never had a chance to be judged, I would never had been able to improve - again, for myself. Maybe some entrants are beginning composers? If you to deny them their entry, you dont give them a chance to be judged. You deny them their progression (not entirely, granted, but its still a major blow in their face).
Anyway, I better stop now. You can see that this topic is dear to me, so its the last youll hear me say about it. I apologize beforehand for any hard words, but - know that theyre not targeted at anyone.
09. Nov 2003 20:45
And OMG, how do I encode carriage returns into a post? :/
09. Nov 2003 20:48
Whoa, been away for 3 days and now we are up in 41 tunes!? I was aiming for top 3, but with all the latest entries I would be lucky to get in at top 10. hehe..
09. Nov 2003 21:30
Vip, yea well, although a greater part of your post is a mystery to me (I dont know nor give a shit about PC demos), Ill try to explain why I find preselection a good idea.
Imagine someone who is NOT a die-hard SID fan, just interested in chipmusic, or maybe in C64 system in general. Roman tries to popularize sidmusic by organizing SID Compo, and one day our someone heards of it. He downloads the voting pack - lo and behold, there are over 40 tunes in it!!! And some of them contain nothing but a bloody cacophony. (Yea, tastes differ, but not to that extent! Music has rules, and those who break them without knowing them arent really musicians, and their works shouldnt be called music - cacophony is a word that fits.) Tell me: is he going to take a longer listen to each and every tune, measuring their quality with appropriate attention? Or is he rather going to slide through the tunes quickly, judging them by their beginnings and therefore giving marks almost randomly? Or is he going to give up, throw up and decide not to vote at all, thinking that modern sidmusic is a mistake? I fear the latter.
Myself, I think that C64 music scene has a relatively large percent of releases that have nothing to do with music (if compared to Speccy or 8-bit Atari scene). Im convinced that it is due to C64 popularity in general - thanks to that, we have many newcomers. Which is a blessing, but might turn out to be a curse as well. Take these two SIDs: Celebrating Samhain and Chantelle. Both were done by newcomers. But you actually CAN hear the difference, cant you? One of the composers is very very promising, and one has still a LOT to learn. Preselection would perhaps help to separate music from discouraging, disappointing shit, built up without a slightest knowledge of harmony, melody, arrangement etc. As this compo is for popularizing sidmusic, not for hardcore fans who are so tired of consonant solutions and certain conventions they will swallow up everything that smells experimental (not necessarily good, not necessarily skillful, not necessarily well crafted, but it has to be ARTISTIC AVANTGARDE!!!).
I know that the above stream of consciousness is not organized either, but I need another coffee too... ;)
09. Nov 2003 21:32
What, pray tell, is preselection anyway....???? Listening to the musix in a preselected order?
Anyway time for me to hear the new entries....
09. Nov 2003 21:33
Preselection: ruling out certain entries due to their low quality.
The Will Of God
09. Nov 2003 21:35
Im listening to "Short Metamorphosis" continuously, for 39 minutes now. Another 9 points from me.
09. Nov 2003 21:41
As a comparison, the MiniGame compo has had 60+ entries for two years in a row, spread over a dozen platforms too, which makes it an awful lot of work to play through the entries. Everyone are allowed to vote, but I expect it is mostly the participants and surrounding people (like sceners/users and previous participants) who actually do. Some games are truly crap, while some need more time. Some get an immediate feeling in two minutes while some need 15+ minutes to play a game. However, I havent seen anyone of the partipants complaining about too many (poor) entries and that the management should refuse to accept entries within the rules only because they are weak.
How about having a compo only for previously unpublished authors, if were the big road block? You could have two or three classes; newcomers, juniors and long-time SID seniors and then you could guess and vote in the class that attracts you most.
09. Nov 2003 21:47
Vip: I agree. Besides, who should perform such preselection? Jeroen Tel? Top 5? My grandmother?
09. Nov 2003 21:55
I agree with Vip on Ed. I think hes a fantastic musician, and one of my fave C64 musos ever. I did not know he was preselected out of most parties, though I "heard" people on the net "saying" that he was shite and didnt make music. Fer foks sake, hes fokin brilliant! Anywya, still listening to them tunes. brilliant pack
09. Nov 2003 22:00
i also find it amazing that theres more and more composer popping up on the c64, compared to gfxers and coders. but its been like that in the other scenes as well, theres always 50% musicians compared to the rest, but hardly any that also code and do gfx.
09. Nov 2003 22:01
He wasnt preselected at any party I can think of. Voted last, yes, causing people to scream in pain and plug their ears, yes, but ruled out by default - not.
09. Nov 2003 22:03
 I came up with an idea how to perform a preselection. Read more carefully.
09. Nov 2003 22:28
Dalezy, then you havent been paying attention :)
09. Nov 2003 22:30
On preselection - solve it all by having a qaulifying heat. First a compo for everyone, where top10 (or smth like that) then move on to a second compo, where they have to hand in new tunes. Would it make things even more interesting? (41+, geez, well done everyone!)
09. Nov 2003 22:30
Super, I got the 500th reaction! :D
09. Nov 2003 22:37
to post : No, it wasnt my purpose to make a cover, but i had the melody from scooters weekend in my head a few minutes before deadline so i tried to use this melody for the lead because it fits good into the tune. is my tune now disqualified? i hope not :)
anonymous composer :)
09. Nov 2003 22:40
Whoa, been away for 3 days and now we are up in 41 tunes!? I was aiming for top 3, but with all the latest entries I would be lucky to get in at top 10. hehe..
09. Nov 2003 22:41
;-)) Dane having 2 rounds. Doesnt it sound like a sport? ;-)) Anyway SidParade (my idea since 1998-99? ask Mr.Sid he should remember we were discussing it) is another thing. I think Ill give it a chance this page or even better CSDB (which already has profiels) is a good place for such thing. Idea is simple top 10 + 5 new entries every month. Of course it means musicians will have to be more active in this aspect and release enough new musics every month to select from. We could also pick 4 new and one oldie, that would also be funny ;-). Although Im afraid selecting some Hubbard or Jeroen stuff could end in longlasting overtaking of the first place ;-)) (just because of retro-nostaliac vote reasons of course ;-)
09. Nov 2003 22:42
And yeah I need another cup of coffee too ;-))
09. Nov 2003 22:45
Whoa! Even I can do the double post routine!
09. Nov 2003 22:50
A qualifying heat? Different leagues? What are we talking about? Track and field? Soccer? I thought this was all supposed to be fun... everyone gets a shot, there is some voting, an end result and then we drink a beer or something?
But now, the fact that there are so many entries, we need numerus clausus? There has to be selection? Where is the fun in that?
As for the someone in , I dont care what (s)he does, what opinion (s)he forms or if (s)hes even inclined to vote for that matter. If theres a *genuine* interest by this person, (s)he *will* listen to the diversity and vote for those (s)he likes most. Side note - in this selection of 41 tunes, there are at least 10 I like. In todays top 50 of popular music, there are 2 I like. So I dont think were having a bad like/notlikesoverymuch ratio here.
Please give every beginning composer a chance, okay? There arent as many as one would think...
09. Nov 2003 22:52
1st : Yeah, jury mainstream top 5 preselecting out the avangarde, briliant!
2nd : In music, there are no rules. Like painting, you can mix color and textures. If it sounds good, it is good. Nothing more. Sidmusic isnt reserved for "conventional artists".
just wait and compose some more and you will one day join with Ed.
09. Nov 2003 23:01
 Amen, Stanley! Nail = hit right on head. And this () has nothing to do with artistical avantgarde, it is a state of mind. Others have a state of mind geared to the mainstream, others still have a state of mind aimed at trance, or maybe multigenre... none of these states of mind can claim to be teh 31337 avantgarde - they are all equivalent, and they all have to be taken at face value.
09. Nov 2003 23:04
Anyway, I think we should all cheer at the activity this competition causes. And something has to be seriously right about it, when so many choose to enter. Ive got at least 5 tunes that I like A LOT which will be on my playlist for a time to come. Thats more than I can say about basically any demoparty these days.
09. Nov 2003 23:06
The thing I thought was interesting about the qualifying heat (I hate to sound like a sports fan) is that competitors would have to make 2 tunes. The more the merrier.
09. Nov 2003 23:14
Yes, but the fact that only the top 5 or top 10 makes a second tune, leaving the others out of the fun because theyre not worthy, is something else...
09. Nov 2003 23:16
I would understand it if this was a contest where 256+ participants entered and the top prize was 100000 dollars, but this is just for fun, or so I thought?
09. Nov 2003 23:16
An idea is to let 2 composers compete against eachother and end up in a sort of cross-finals idea.. Then in the 1/8 finals, let a close relative compose the basline, and a random passing person on the street whistle the lead into a taperecorder: Then make up some arpeggios and delete the things made by the other persons. Pass your track with only arpeggios to the next composer that is still in the 1/8 finals (heres where CreamDs active roll comes in) and they have to make a tune out of that !! Voting will be obsolete! Nobody stands a chance!
09. Nov 2003 23:17
btw; i went from coffee to beers :)
09. Nov 2003 23:18
The prize isnt 100000 dollars?!? :O
09. Nov 2003 23:27
Stanley Skullhead: in real music, there are rules. If not, we can as well burn down all music schools and join Ed. We can shit onstage and vomit on the audience, instead of learning about composition, harmony, conventions and styles invented in the past. We can all join Ed! It does not require any skills. It is enough to say there are no rules. And anyone can be a composer, no matter what musical knowledge (s)he possesses. JOIN ED TODAY!!!
I went from coffee to even stronger coffee, and it shows, doesnt it... :D
09. Nov 2003 23:39
Oh, I see the demonic moons total eclipse had taken its dark results into the mind of any SID musician all over the scene. :D BTW, lets talk about musics rules, first-times entries, coffees, one-on-one SID fights... everythings okay, but .:|please|:. let someone tell us if other tunes are coming in!
09. Nov 2003 23:40
...or if the achieveing time should be finally considered close.
09. Nov 2003 23:43
Amen, SB! Thats the spirit! In real music, there are no rules. Yes, we can crap onstage and vomit, throw ourselves into the audience and bust our guitars after the concert. We *can* all join Ed! But oops, doing this actually does require skill! You see, one can only break down the fundaments of music and build something new only if one understands those fundaments. Picasso was a phenomenal classical painter, but he chose to forsake it and try to build something new. Some people liked it, some didnt. The same goes for music. Must one like these new things? Nope, not at all. But theyre there, theyre thoroughly funded and one can grow to like them. Or like something else. Its all equivalent. Its your choice. Your freedom. Hmm, I think Ill choose tea.
09. Nov 2003 23:58
Amen, SB! That?s the spirit! In real music, there are no...ops, a stupid joke ;)
10. Nov 2003 00:15
Its nice if one still can find anything new from this horribly limited piece of hardware. Ed, though his music might seem weird to one, is actually closely related to whats happening at the IDM scene. SB, please open your mind, you might experience something new.
10. Nov 2003 00:20
SB: Wrong...Making music like Eds requires a lot of harmonic and arrangement skills. Try to make one tune like Eds then you will know. Wasnt it be a bit boring if everyone has to stick to conventions?
10. Nov 2003 00:22
10. Nov 2003 00:31
terence: how are you partner? still stuck in that spaghetti-western? your friend,
10. Nov 2003 00:36
Vincent, somewhere above I was differentiating between breaking rules that one is familiar with and knows them inside out AND trying to be experimental without composing at least one excellent (or even standard average) tune showing musical knowledge before. What do you think, to which category does Ed belong? I admire your (or Shogoons, or Waceks) experiments, because I am aware that you are a skilled musician and know the area you are experimenting with perfectly. Yet I cant tell the same thing about ca. 90% of modern C64 musicians trying to be avantgarde, sorry. Therefore Im afraid that praising Ed and his followers (let alone comparing them to Pablo Picasso) means mistaking ignorance for originality. "I said it once before, but it bears repeating..."
I regret drinking so much coffee now, Ill have to wake up at 7 oclock tomorrow :(
10. Nov 2003 00:38
Stanley : no, it doesnt require any skills. Unless I am a musical ignorant.
10. Nov 2003 00:43
Hm.. seems like this is getting out of control, everybody is so excited ;-) Anyway I expect one more tune - for sure. Two maximally.
10. Nov 2003 01:01
Nah, preselection isnt necessary for exactly the reasons Vip descriped: First, this is a fun event! Second, it would really discourage newbies. And last but not least: Popularizing SID music wont work anyway. Maybe you can get some Atari or Spektrum people to take a listen and eventually like what they hear. But Joe Average or my mum will surely not like SID music, no matter how awesome the tune is.
And SB: You really dont seem to "understand" Eds music. Theres a deeper meaning in some of his tunes that still failed to reach that special part of your brain. Not liking or not understanding Eds ways is one thing, but classifying his music as utter crap with no involvement of skill and musicality makes me smile, to put it discrete...
10. Nov 2003 01:02
SB: Ok, I guess I wont convince you anyway.
10. Nov 2003 01:23
Yeah ED has very interesting sound but I dont think most of us hear the world through his ears. ITs like with Death Metal.. (or New Kids On the Block ;-)) one or two bands singing lyrics in udecipherable pig roars and bustered voices, to under-tuned guitars and drums doing ratatatata in the speed matching kalashnikow are okay, but when it turns fashionable that quite sucks IMO. One ED is okay , but more would be quite a lot for the SID scene ;-)
10. Nov 2003 01:37
For what its worth, Ed is among my favourite C-64 composers. Unfortunately there arent too many people who compose "real" techno on the C-64. Ive done some but the sounds Ed gets out of the SID are really good. And a comment to SB; personally I dont like rock music (generally speaking), but I dont go around whining that its not Music(tm) or that making it doesnt require any skills.
10. Nov 2003 01:50
CreamD, I loved your description of Death Metal - made me smile :). Steppe, thanks for the support and I agree with your last sentence, but the one before that is something else. Im sure SB knows his stuff - if he doesnt like Ed, thats his good right and I have no problems with that - in fact, I respect his opinion. But, to say Ed has no knowledge on how to do things, is not right. Just listen to Calypsonic_Remix, which is one of his older works. Rhythmic very fresh, beat is right - then listen to all the little details, amping volume, changing filters etc. Thats not something you compose in five minutes (in fact, I dare say its easier to compose something Drax-like than something Ed-like. Oded took me hours to tweak, Groovebox much less). And he evolved beyond that state, even. Same for I miss You... brilliant single speed sounds, and an atmosphere to die for. I dont know how much Djinn added, but Id love to hear more of that stuff - Eddie, give Djinn a call, will you? ;). SB, if you dont agree, try and make something Ed-like, single speed, similar quality. Youll soon notice its not that trivial. And now, everyone, go listen to Inner_Logic by Wizard. Its puuure bliss... Night! :)
10. Nov 2003 05:53
Great thing about this competition being anonymous is talking with others trying to figure out who composed what. Some are easier than others.
10. Nov 2003 08:25
Mh, seems that the "sure" entry #42 still has to pop out. Ah good morning to everybody, here in Italy weather suggest the last splash at the sea.
10. Nov 2003 08:27
And I would no doubt freeze to death if I went swimming here in Sweden. Interesting to follow the discussion as always.
10. Nov 2003 08:48
SB: As for , he was preselected at Mekka 2001, along with one of the best tunes in the compo, SounDemoNs.
10. Nov 2003 08:54
hrm, crazy stupid idea. did you guys ever see a site called "whats better"? i think its "whats better.com" or something. anyhow, the premise was, that you would be presented with a series of two items, and youd have to select which you liked more. I think a similar thing could work with sid voting, so that each time you visit the vote page, you are presented with 2 random songs, which you then have to listen to, and decide which you like better, with the algorythm tweaked in such a way so that it chooses from the songs that youve heard the least (ergo, you get to hear everything before it repeats songs). voter then repeats until he/she/hu have voted for long enough. ergo, casual voter does not have 50 songs thrown at them at once, and gets to hear new songs, but you get a good spread of voting across all musics, while the more hardcore amoung us can keep voting until weve heard all songs, without having to deal with repeats etc
10. Nov 2003 08:56
Which is the best waveform if one should emulate vomiting on stage? Btw, in most other music genres, new _listeners_ are introduced to the genre by an expert picking some of the highlights, not delving into the latest compositions. FWIW, if a compo is meant to have a promotional and representative value, it should be stated and then a pre-selection jury might come in order. If the new SID fan finds out this is a scene where we welcome new listeners but not neccessarily new contributors, the new SID fan might stick to Hubbard and give a damn about anything post 1992, or drop off completely.
10. Nov 2003 09:00
:$55, from F-5 linked with a bass $41, little glide down, ADSR=03ca, gateoff=0f :D
10. Nov 2003 09:37
: Any particular pulse width preferred? I have a feeling some kind of filter might be in order for a proper throwing up (and what about farting, burping or sneezing into the microphone? ;-)
10. Nov 2003 09:59
Youre trying to reinvent the wheel. Its all already done. Guess by whom.
10. Nov 2003 10:07
Heheh.  was good. Anyway 42 received. I hopefully will close the compo at 12:00 today and you can release breathe as I will get back to this stuff in the late evening. ;-)) Depends on how fast Ill make the pack, participating musicians will receive package containing d64 with all musics (sorted to 6581 and 8580) and instructions on voting and stuff. Then the voting page will be prepared and the audience will have chance the pick their own favourites ;-).
10. Nov 2003 10:14
10. Nov 2003 10:25
Id like to state that _all_ my comments have deeply personal character and have nothing to do with the opinions of HVSC team. HVSC team does not, under any circumstances, support my criticism. More of which to come as soon as Im off duty :D
10. Nov 2003 11:41
The murphys law.. everything was running smoothly until the last tune which I was waiting for already for since goat compo ;-) Finally the dude delivered the tune, but I have troubles making sid of it ;-)) Anyway if I faill Ill get the tune online in the evening.
10. Nov 2003 12:00
So as I have said one more last tune was sent to me and I cant put it online right now. So you will receive it in the evening. If you still wish to listen to it. You can load it into the vice and use sys 18096
to run it. Here it is : Data4 - 43th entry
10. Nov 2003 12:10
i apparently have a different view on music since i either like a tune or i dont. it takes quite a lot for me to notice if the composer is crap at with he tries to do, and even a tune with lousy sounds and everything might appeal to me for other reasons. so a tune that is crap as judged by SB or a tune that i simply find boring could be equally bad to me, but ofcourse i wouldnt go on a crusade to rule out all tunes that i find boring. that would be as stupid as say, having a milestone demo voting where i already decided what 10 demos to vote for, turning it into pick your favourite among hollowmanss favourites and noone would do such a stupid thing, ehh?
i also liked chimera/halcyon which from what i heard was preselected because the organizers didnt think it would fit in the kind of demo show they wanted, which they decided after a few seconds of watching. i dont like the product/fr at all but then i know many people who actually enjoy it. there is no need for a taste dictator which decides whats good and whats not, so SB, stop fighting for getting that position. since you cant appreciate pc demos or eds music, you would be a crappy one anyway
10. Nov 2003 12:43
Hollowman, this is Phoenix response to Chimera on pouet.net: "Um, no, I was on the jury. It didnt show up in the compo because it never made it to the jury to begin with. Now if it was entered on time and the main demo organizer deleted it before I got a chance to see it, then my bad. I havent seen it yet, but to date, theres no Halcyon demo I wouldnt want to see in compo. The scene needs to get a little less paranoid". So either Phoenix is right and the demo never arrived (in which case Halcyon was lying in their note), or Phoenix is right and the main organizer deleted it (in which case this guy gets a mighty [***censored***] from me). As for the rest, yeah, agree except for the last sentence.
10. Nov 2003 13:12
Hollowman, I partly agree and partly disagree with you.
I agree on that Im crap and that there is no need for a taste dictator.
I disagree on that I shouldnt go on a crusade to defend what I believe in. I believe in not naming a composer who cant construct, and wants to deconstruct, a musician; and not naming his works music.
So what if he promoted himself to the point where no one objects and everyone agrees on his view of things, comparing him to Picasso? And whats worse, he serves as an excuse for other wannabe C64 composers knowing nothing about harmony and melody but striving to be famous and appreciated.
10. Nov 2003 13:13
43 - combining both follins and pris styles was a neat idea. =)
think i already got an idea about the autor, tho i thought that certain someone turned inactive some time ago.
10. Nov 2003 13:17
#43 reminds me of an PD breakout game for the Amiga.
10. Nov 2003 13:19
"One Hit Wonder" - probably fifth tune in the compo getting a maximum of points from me. Niiiiiiice!
10. Nov 2003 13:24
Wonder (or wAnder!) about the remaining 4 :O
10. Nov 2003 13:28
 Ah, probably you mean the ingame fx, not a real existent PD games introtune :D
10. Nov 2003 13:42
my first guess was wrong, but now im 100% sure who did one hit wonder. gotta hand him a beer and my promised selfmade stuff in case he hopefully comes to one of the next parties. =)
10. Nov 2003 13:43
tune 37: KEWL! me like.
10. Nov 2003 13:57
dalezy: i don?t drink beer at all! you think i got inactive some time ago? hmm... i am curious about your 100% when the guessing compo starts. drop me a line and tell me your thoughts. what about you sb? here?s my hint 4u: i have a directory in hvsc! ;)
10. Nov 2003 14:00
Better for us to take a deep breath now and lean back in our armchairs. Thanks to 2 of yesterdays entries and One Hit Wonder, I hope that SC3 will be regarded as one of the best music compos ever - again.
To all composers who submitted their entries: thank you! Despite everything, and no matter if I liked a particular tune or not, thank you! 43 contributions is a result that goes far beyond my imagination.
10. Nov 2003 14:03
#42: Tell me whats your favourite drink and Ill tell you who you are. Or at least I think so ;)
10. Nov 2003 14:07
CreaMD: in case you have problems, ask the composer of #43 for an unpacked tune (CT module), and then send it to email@example.com - he will pack it, right Steppe?
GuE5s0r is back again
10. Nov 2003 14:20
#42 - i corrected my guess, so i know you arent inactive at all. (hint: the way your bassline is built up kinda revealed it - too bad i dont have your actual working adress in mind right now =)
10. Nov 2003 14:30
sb: my favourite drink is j?germeister/redbull. now you are confused, right?? ;-)
10. Nov 2003 14:45
562] I hope the author of 43 reads this forum and will do what you have proposed. (btw I wanted to submit a tune too although I had doubts if it would/wouldn?t be unfair, later it solved itself... I first lost mood for composing (after around 1 min of material was done) and I found later that I even lost about 10 tracks of the last version.. seems like Ill have to fight in another rugby battles.. ;-) anyway thanx everybody for the amazing response and stay tuned!
10. Nov 2003 15:06
I only know one music group capable of doing chord melodies like that. Someone please tell me Im mistaken.
10. Nov 2003 15:24
Seems like a great competition and lots of high quality tunes. I havent done any guessing, but certain tune somewhere on the bottom of the list made me wonder.. :p
10. Nov 2003 15:28
I think you are absolutely right Dane ;)
10. Nov 2003 15:53
Great to see hes releasing yet another tune this year then, if Im correct.
10. Nov 2003 16:00
10. Nov 2003 16:02
I would have never believed that anonymous compo could be such a great fun ;-)
10. Nov 2003 16:33
If we understand each other correctly, its his fifth tune released this year.
When does the guessing compo start? It aint cancelled, is it?
10. Nov 2003 16:34
: Yes, it was ingame music (looping digidrums). Quite enervating in the long run when youre trying to aim the bat to match the rapid ball. :-)
10. Nov 2003 16:36
Re 43: is there a problem in wrapping it in a SID header? I tried to do it by hand, and it seems to work and sound just like the PRG does in VICE.
10. Nov 2003 16:42
This discussion develops too fast so sorry if I missed it: When will the C=64 disk be ready? Interesting # of entries, lets hope the quality will correspond :)
10. Nov 2003 16:47
Anders : send it in, then.
10. Nov 2003 16:52
I dont think youll be disappointed this time, Wotnau.
10. Nov 2003 17:00
I liked the previous compo, too. I just wonder when the d64 will be ready so that I can take part in the voting process. Tough luck that I didnt make my entry in time - I could be a part of the jury, haha :)
10. Nov 2003 17:06
: Ok. I just checked the SID header for false assumptions and sent CreaMD an unofficial .sid file.
10. Nov 2003 17:25
I managed to pack that tune and sent it to CreaMD. Lets hope he still manages to put it in the voting pack.
10. Nov 2003 17:25
Thanx Anders!!! Ill put it up when I finish other duties.
10. Nov 2003 18:42
smalltown crusader, its not ed whos promoting himself, its other people promoting him because they like what he does.he serves as an excuse for other wannabe C64 composers knowing nothing about harmony and melody but striving to be famous and appreciated oh yeah, the horror, we would end up with charts filled with wannabes, and they would get fame and apprecation from everyone, and our only hope is the lone crusader who is able to point out that they know bothing about harmony and melody. i have no idea who those wannabe composers are that you are talking about, but keep on fighting those windmills if it is that important to you. lets just all be happy that not everyone is campaigning against sceners they happen to not like
vip, there seems to be different views on what happened to chimera, read the thread http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=259 "just for the record..the demo was handed in early enough..someone in the jury (cant rember their names) have told me this story: the demo started, 5 seconds later someone pressed escape, and that was it.."
10. Nov 2003 18:58
Hi! After reading the posts, I felt like I\d like to make some comments. I would stongly disagree if there was some kind of preselection. If I spent hours on doing a tune, and it was ruled out from the voting, I would never send in a tune again. I got the feeling that you wanted many tunes for the compo. Also why does some people comment what they think about some tunes? Don\t you think this might affect what people vote? I mean if I read in 50 posts that a tune is crap, maybe I don\t even care to listen to it. I even read a post that told me which tunes wouldn\t get ruled out... didn\t think 1 person could decide that...
10. Nov 2003 19:01
Hollowman, Ive followed the tread, but I can only take the stories of the jury themselves at face value, not hearsay of the I heard from this guy that... variety. So the only statement I can trust is that of Phoenix. Phoenix is a definate Halcyon fan ever since H+, so theres no way hed have been part in preselecting Chimera. My guess is that he was left out of that particular preselection because of that fact (with being biased and all), but thats just my guess. Lets hope the other jurors dare speak up about the mistake they made. Yeah, ok, so there are many sceners who are glad it never showed on the bigscreen - there are just as many who find it an outrage. Im part of that gang.
10. Nov 2003 19:01
Who said 1 person? 43 persons, if the preselection would have been introduced in SC3.
Anyway, lets close this thread now, as Roman himself doesnt seem to be interested in such a solution.
10. Nov 2003 19:10
Hollowman, me fighting what? Re-read the whole thread and pay attention to the amount of posts pointing out that I am hopelessly wrong. Those are not WINDMILLS, and perhaps its not even ME who is on so-called crusade. I have my opinion about this whole phenomenon and thats all, if there werent dozens of people thinking otherwise and trying to prove that I "dont understand" and I should "open my mind", I wouldnt even care to continue it for that long.
Open your mind, Hollowman, tolerate poor code, shut your mouth and dont say a word next time you feel that someone is producing crap AND getting an applause from the whole scene at the same time. Then say Im fighting windmills.
10. Nov 2003 19:21
Oh, I forgot to ask: although there seems to be dozens of Ed-lovers defending his masterpieces, where are they when it comes to voting at parties? Why does he occupy last places constantly?
Id like to state that it isnt even fair. At Floppy and North Party there were tunes worse than his. In fact, "Last Approach" should have been voted at least 3rd at Floppy. Such stream of lovers popping out from everywhere and he couldnt even get what he deserves. Tut tut tut.
10. Nov 2003 20:13
And anyway, Id like to close this topic now. I know some REAL experimental and innovational stuff, recorded by trained musicians who also made some truly beautiful music, so you wont prove me wrong; and I dont expect I can convince you. So, I suppose its better to concentrate on SC3 voting; thats what this forum is for, after all.
10. Nov 2003 20:19
Added #43 a.k.a. "Data4" set to NTSC speed as author wished. ;-)
10. Nov 2003 22:07
That preselection incident (Halcyon) is quite unfortunate, but that just proves my theory about the PC parties. The more mainstream they get the less they are about art and the scene. Preselection ruled out Orcans tune Mexiko
(check it!! and judge for yourself ;-) at one of the Aseembly parties (Deadbeat responsible), organisers incompetence and unvilingness to cooperate ruled out Last Reactor III at The Party 97 (Heavy Head) that was the year when Smash won with their C64 version of the Second Reality. But how about the other side of the coin.. Last Assembly on which I had the chance to be had about 50? PC demos is it okay to play them all night long without preselection? I fell asleep after the Amiga compo (which was quite cool btw.) so I cant really say. ;-)
10. Nov 2003 22:46
Seriously, I think a special compo only for those who see themselves as newbies might be a good thing, in particular if one can expect to get useful criticism (and not only angry smileys) from the judging. It might not even have to have a voting element at all.
OTOH, maybe it is graphicians, coders and software engineers the scene needs, so a special newbie event might be held in those areas first.
11. Nov 2003 00:15
Nonscalar Dress, how exactly can you tell an useless criticism from an useful one? There are no rules and everythings welcome. Even - or perhaps particularly - tunes that consist of 0123 chords and cc#dd#e melodies (for their authors were, apparently, inspired by Anton Webern...)
Couldnt resist :)
11. Nov 2003 02:01
The concept of preselection represents those who see themselves as "elites" wanting to avoid talented newcomers from toppling their status.
They just want the stuff that THEY see as having merit (their own material and that of their friends) to see any exposure. These are the same people who sit in little clusters at parties, snickering, and making derisive comments about others work, discouraging participation in the scene except from a small clique.
11. Nov 2003 02:03
You dont understand the idea of preselection, but never mind. That idea died anyway.
11. Nov 2003 02:12
So everything is sorted to 8580, 6581, shuffled, anonymised, Psid64
executabled and heavily Exomized
The voting pack which will be distributed tommorow will take 2 disk sides (2x D64) one 6581 and one 8580. The tunes will be unsigned (only the music name will be displayed) and they will be ordered alphabetically. Each of the tunes will have identification number (01-43). The pack will be sent to Jury (consisting of the all participating musicians) and it will follow the proposed rules with one exception. Memeber of jury will have to pick his top 10 (due to the fact that there is music overload ;-) The rest of the voting will be performed as usual.
Guessing compo (which will be launched tommorow) the rules will be following. 1 point - good guess (the author is identified), 2 points for good guess if anyone else didnt identify the author of the tune. -1 points, wrong guess. If you read this you can already start to send your guesses to the following addy: firstname.lastname@example.org please write "SC3GUESS" into the title of the mail
11. Nov 2003 02:13
By the rest of the voting I mean audience voting.
11. Nov 2003 07:37
Useful critism is when you have something constructive to say; suggestions on what to improve, other examples of the same genre worth listening to, trying to find the good points. Explaining it is a three chord song with a weak melody might be good or bad critism depending on how you put it.
Of course, in Popstars auditions, the jury is not being afraid of verbally vomiting and killing anyone less talented right where they stand. Apart from refraining a lot of insecure people from trying out, it might be entertaining to watch.
11. Nov 2003 07:40
Looks like a piece of hard work has been done. Thanks go to all the orgs.
Ant/Aardwark Designs :)
11. Nov 2003 13:01
Btw; I love that One Hit Wonder! :)
11. Nov 2003 13:27
And I got the 600th reaction. Whoopee! Votepack now puleez, my ranking is ready :D
11. Nov 2003 13:29
You have to be patient I first must slavework in the matrix and then I can plug out to real world.. or is it vice versa? ;-) Whatever.
11. Nov 2003 13:51
creamd, you say you didnt take part? i thought there are 2 tunes that sounded at least a bit like what you normally do. =)
the last place in the guessing compo
11. Nov 2003 14:06
I normally do 3 note tunes which ppl are humming, singing and whistling all day long and they dont even notice it. they even listen to them while driving ;-))
11. Nov 2003 14:07
So yeah there is plenty of such tunes here, but none of them sounds like mine. My 3 note tunes are more simplicated.
11. Nov 2003 14:08
Btw. which ones? ;-)
11. Nov 2003 14:11
@ 602: Interesting. That would be metacreamding. CreaMD normally composes extremely commercial stuff for compos (his own words), i.e. he always has in mind what the audience might want and like. Metacreamding, or metacommerce, would be composing the way CreaMD composes because thats often what the audience likes ;)
11. Nov 2003 14:47
Well.. thats only part of the truth. Other part of the truth is that this is an excuse for my really distasteful an commercial view on music. I really love to listen to stuff which I love to compose, but I dont want to look ridiculous so I claim that I intentionally produce it like that and I can do much better (which I of course cant ;-)
11. Nov 2003 14:55
And also Im starting to learn that I should stop talking carelessly about things I care about it then returns like boomerang. Although I thought one of my closest friends will be able to realise what might such comments cause to my sensitive choleric nature. Anyway gotta continue on pack etc. Stay tuned. Gimme about hour and Ill get all things online ;-)
11. Nov 2003 18:00
Tum te tum, dum de dum, *waits not-so-patiently for votepacks release* ;D
11. Nov 2003 18:11
@608: To be honest, I dont really understand what could upset you about my comment. When you talked about composing what you call "party-killers", you always spoke the way I quoted. If its the word commerce you dont like, Im sorry, for me commerce is nothing negative. E.g. I am a fucking consumer, as Ive always loved commercial authors like Stephen King. The whole thing was meant as a joke, so if you have one of your touchy days today, feel free to delete all the entries. Anyway, who cares.
11. Nov 2003 18:14
So the jury package was sent. Ive to get back to work so expect the audience voting etc. in the evening.
11. Nov 2003 18:31
PArty killer was ther word yeah. Yup I compose tunes which should have some impact on the party audience. Sometimes it works, sometimes it dont (depends on sound equipment, party mood, or even audience (as SB says, you cant win NParty with simple arranges ;-)). Anywya I think every musicians is tryint to do the same, intentionally or unintentionally. As far as my mood is concerned it is okay I just dont feel comfortable when someone speaks for me. You just more-or-less did that at . Anyway I care about a lot of things althoug sometimes it doesnt look like that
11. Nov 2003 18:33
Like I dont care about typing mistakes but how can I when I already used 2 hours of my worktime over this compo organising.
11. Nov 2003 19:01
I think guessing compo is not a good idea... especially not for the jury.. take a look at the textfile sent with the mail :|
11. Nov 2003 19:05
"Myself, I think that C64 music scene has a relatively large percent of releases that have nothing to do with music" - "in real music, there are rules. If not, we can as well burn down all music schools and join Ed. (...) It does not require any skills."
Myself, I think SmallMindedBoy should stfu and spend more time composing instead of whining. Ed for president.
11. Nov 2003 19:11
We tried making Ed the president...but everybody stopped washing themselves after a few days....
11. Nov 2003 19:29
Well, if they washed themselves for a few days thats still better than not washing themselves at all?
11. Nov 2003 19:50
I feel that SB is entitled to his opinion, and I certainly wouldnt want anyone for president, dictating the ways of life... you either like something for whatever reason you like it, or you dont. Its *that* simple. The stupid thing about this is that while Im trying to say that everyones opinion is equivalent, that in itself is *forcing* a certain opinion onto others, so in the end, I am guilty of the crime I wanted not to commit. Bleh. :/
11. Nov 2003 20:11
Vip, surely I am entitled to my (highly subjective) opinion as well?
11. Nov 2003 20:19
Mermaid, but probably you should also accept the fact that Smalltow Boy is quite an active composer, so no need to tell him to stfuandcompose..
And yeah guessing compo is closed for the jury. My fault. Dear jurors, send me the hatemails at usual e-mail addy.
11. Nov 2003 20:20
 Of course! :) In the understanding that my views, his views and your views are equally weighted.  That sounds like bad news. :(
11. Nov 2003 20:24
 *patpatpats* Dont worry, CreamD :), everyone makes mistakes. I remember giving away too strong a hint in a quiz show I presented in the high school I teached last year. I didnt realize the mistake until afterwards. Luckily, it was only one question out of many and luckily, this mistake seems to be limited to the entrants only.
11. Nov 2003 20:28
Yeah...guessing compo can be done by everyone who didnt enter!
11. Nov 2003 20:52
CreaMD, Ill say what I want about SB and his BS opinions.
11. Nov 2003 21:42
Hmm, I have no old C64 with 6581-Chip... Is it better to check those 6581-tunes with a real C64 II with 8580-Chip or better with SIDPLAY2w switched on 6581-Emulation? What do you think?
11. Nov 2003 22:23
Use any of the proposed ways, although emulation might be slightly more accurate in filter emulation it doesnt emulate many other things 100%. In my opinion 6581 tunes sound quite good on NEW sid only the filter is different. I loved most of the Jeroen Tels or Dankos tunes even when they had different bass than intended. Only fatal exception I know so far is Red Devils doublespeed tune called "For Avantgarde", the bass is too loud there, although I loved the tune anyway even when I complained about the loud bass only to realise that the bass is loud because the tune was composed on the old sid where it roxxors!. I strictly reccomend NOT to check 8580 made sid tunes on OLD sid, this can make far more unpredictable results.
11. Nov 2003 22:38
Sorry for being lame but... Regarding Jury Rules, are we supposed to number our 10 favourite tunes from 1 to 10 aswell?
11. Nov 2003 22:45
big bender: thats what i intended to do, but afaik were just supposed to name the top 10 tunes we like, if i got it all right.
11. Nov 2003 23:02
@Intensity: Do not emulate the 6581 on the PC, its much better to play a 6581 tune in a real 8580 than using a lameulator. It sounds like absolute garbage, I mean it.
11. Nov 2003 23:05
Top 10 = Top Ten a.k.a. Ranking list etc. Order the tunes from the best to the worst.
11. Nov 2003 23:08
Akira Sidplay2/w using resid engine emulates quite acceptably, as well as VICE emulator. Its still not 100% the same but its not makin tunes sound as complete garbage anymore. Some people even used it for composing (which I dont consider very comfortable idea, but when you are "forced" to do so.. ;-)
11. Nov 2003 23:15
There are still some people composing their tunes using the Goat Tracker for Windows :)
11. Nov 2003 23:18
Hm.. I have never supposed that this compe will grow so big.. do you think I should expect more than 40 tunes also next year? ;-))
11. Nov 2003 23:21
CJ thats different. I suppose (or better said, I know) GOAT is far more comfortable than any emulated music editor.
11. Nov 2003 23:41
Should the votes be presented in both English and French, or is one language enough? How about prepending the votes with some crap notes how lovely the show has been etc?
12. Nov 2003 00:24
"stfu" - sweet, really. Mermaid, is this the way you are used to react upon opinions that dont suit you? Shouldnt you learn to control your temper and to voice your disagreement in a more elegant way, instead of being unnecessarily rude and arrogant? BTW. where is your feedback about the tunes submitted? Its your very first appearance on this forum, and all you have to say is "stfu". *shakes head*
"you should spend more time composing" - I can assure you that Ive spent quite a lot of time musicmaking and learning various rules of various music (because they, unfortunately for you, exist). Whether I succeeded in your eyes/ears or not, and whether you like the results or not is another thing.
"Small Minded Boy" - for you, my dear Vanja - and for a few others - its enough that I regard Ed as a poor composer (so far), who claims his works experimental while in fact they arent, to label me as small minded. Saaaad. All I want is to state that I cant find Eds stuff acceptable, because my idea of innovational music refers rather to some be-boppers and their harmonical inventions, Bill Evans modal jazz pieces, or Coltranes attempts to break the barrier of being tonal; to name but a few examples. Compared to theirs, Eds progressive music looks blank, simple, empty and doesnt make sense - to me. To prove that Im small minded and thats why I dont like Ed, youll have to:
a) listen to the music I mentioned as _really_ innovational
b) convince me that Ed knows inside out the rules of music he breaks, like experimentators I respect did
Which would be the most futile, Im afraid.
But OK, I can accept your point of view. All right, Ed for president. Great, his followers can stay immune to learn _anything_ apart from the guideline that there are no rules. Very nice, to invent new musical languages before learning existing ones. VERY EASY.
Wish you luck. I can even support you with an occasional striptease celebrating some anniversary of Eds reign, because the above trend sets me free from worrying if my knowledge of music is sufficient, and from making it more and more complete in order to understand my area of activity better.
To quote Vip, amen. :)
12. Nov 2003 00:38
OK, my two pennies (or cents, or whatever currency you want). Ed tries something different, doesnt always achieve a real impact BEYOND a "Oh, thats different" level, but in a way he adds something to every production hes involved in. SB, I understand what you are saying too - to break the rules you have to know what they are. To dismiss Ed so easily is, I feel, a little harsh.
There, just how I see it. Now Ive got to find time to listen to 42 tunes :) I mean, 43...
12. Nov 2003 00:40
Arrogant? Hardly any more arrogant than the opinions you have expressed here during the last few weeks. As for feedback about the tunes, Id rather leave that for *after* the voting is closed and let every voter make up her/his own mind independently.
"Unfortunately for you" - yeah, right, Im the arrogant one... And yes, I do think it would be better if you spent more time making the music you like and less time complaining about how everyone who doesnt make the sort of music you like are not real musicians.
12. Nov 2003 03:41
So you can download the vote pack and start voting. Have fun. 43 tunes.. pheww.. I wonder how many valid votesheets we will receive ;-))
12. Nov 2003 04:57
"Sidplay2/w using resid engine emulates quite acceptably, as well as VICE emulator. It?s still not 100% the same but it?s not makin tunes sound as complete garbage anymore." Acceptably, yes, if you have no choice. There are tunes in this compo which sound like complete garbage (IMO ;) I just can;t listen to them with sidplay/2 after listening them in my C128.
12. Nov 2003 08:37
CreaMD: If you implemented an /ignore command for this forum, we wouldnt have to read the comments from some of the more frequent posters of bullshit. Id appreciate that.
12. Nov 2003 08:38
Ok, hence I could listen to all the sids on my plus4+SIDcard(8580), or on a c64 with 6581r4, but in both cases Ill get bad: the plus4 will play them in a slightly shifted frqtable, and the c64 doesnt play good the 8580-based ones. Finally, Ill use SIDplay2. 2cents by basic from me too: IF"ED"="Eddie Sv?rd"THENPRINT"..::|GENIUS|::..";
12. Nov 2003 09:49
Puterman. why so harsh? Its a beautiful late morning why should we spoil it. This possibility to react on things wasnt planned to suit for more complicated things like solving problems of human tolerance. If anyone goes out of boundaries usually there are people who calm him down. This is the topic, which many people take seriosly, thats why the discussion is sometimes so heated. No need to add any more special options. DEL command for nasty stuff is here and for the rest, all we need is love.
12. Nov 2003 11:46
CreaMD: Harsh? Id better not write a comment on that...
12. Nov 2003 11:49
12. Nov 2003 12:08
Will we got all sids as a sid-pack too? (Not that i need it anylonger after i fixed my audio-cable AFTER the compo...)
And why should we start with that ignore-bullshit anyway? I do not see any good in simply ignoring people with opinions you do not like... (its another thing for those who abuse reactions and fori (forums? forae?) with stupid crap-message etc. ofcourse blabla etcetera punkt punkt punkt
12. Nov 2003 15:16
Guess which tune is corrupt on the d64s!(smallhint,itisontheb-side(mos8580).
12. Nov 2003 15:21
pi: I have no problems with people having different opinions than me. However, some people have posted a lot of stuff that Im not interested in reading here, so an ignore function would save me some time when checking new messages. Especially as there have been 40 or 50 new messages now and then when Ive checked. Now please explain why this is "bullshit".
12. Nov 2003 15:22
Seriously, saying Ed doesnt do music is just hilarious. Hes got a truly unique style, that manages to push the whole SID-scene in a new direction, like it or not. That weve debated his particular music for so many posts should serve as evidence enough. Well probably never agree on taste - and thats fine, Im not expecting us to. Comparing Ed to Coltrane, Picasso, whoever is also just ludicrous. Theres no one on the scene talented enough to be compared to those, so why just namedrop them for the sake of slamming someone? And also, how many classically trained and skilled c64-musicians who know all about the rules of music are there? I cant read transcribed notes to save my life, nor do I play any instruments. I learned all about what chords work (for me) the hard way - by experimenting. And still that doesnt mean everybody will like what I do. There is no universal taste or rule of what is good music. There just isnt. And finally, I thought we were doing this for fun? How fun is launching an assault on a single guy?
12. Nov 2003 15:33
I dont want to guess which tune is corrupted so please let me know which is. Ive runned the tunes on real C64 and everything unpacked and runned fine for few seconds. If anything plays wrong let me know so I can correct it asap.
12. Nov 2003 16:07
Hey Roman... Ok, I know as a jury that I should not pick my own SID into my Top 10. I have understood this. But what about the 43 SIDs we should rate, should I rate mine too?
Another question. Me as a jury, do I HAVE to vote per E-Mail and give you 43 votes or am I allowed to vote those musics on the c64.sk website, too?
Sorry, if these questions might have fallen before.
12. Nov 2003 16:09
CreaMD: youll have mail in just a few minutes with a working version of it. Its LeTartar & Pretzelism and somehow playsid crashes after 4 minutes or so. Just found out by accident (:
an anominised composer
12. Nov 2003 16:11
Hey Roman... Ok, I know as a jury that I should not pick my own SID into my Top 10. I have understood this. But what about the 43 SIDs we should rate, should I rate mine too?
Another question. Me as a jury, do I HAVE to vote per E-Mail and give you 43 votes or am I allowed to vote those musics on the c64.sk website, too?
Sorry, if these questions might have fallen before.
12. Nov 2003 16:11
Puterman: I understand that you do not want to read through 50+ reactions especially when most of them are uninteresting for you. However the problem with an ignore-button would be that you could only ignore some person but not uninteresting reactions by themself. So you may ignore someinteresting stuff aswell.
pi, writing on an damaged sun-keyboard.
12. Nov 2003 16:23
 Dane: I didnt compare Ed to Picasso in that sense. What I said is that, like Picasso, Ed chose to part with other forms of music and try something different. Whether or not Ed produces work that proves itself to be of the same level as Picasso, was never on debate (how could you even compare or grade these works?). The debate, btw, originally was about whether or not preselection is a good thing... I used Eds music as an *example* to show as to why I think that preselection is not a good thing. I apologize if I followed that up with I like Eds music but that statement was needed to explain the argument. That it would culminate into an argument with a few harsh words, I hadnt expected.. At least it shows a few interesting points on the case Ed: many composers seem to respect his work, but on parties, he isnt exactly top-spot material. That would lead me to conclude that the general scener (c64 or other platform) listening to his music isnt that thrilled to hear it. Making that Picasso parallell again, the general human being wasnt interested in his work either, and even today, many people say I dont get it. They *tell* me its good, but... I really dont get it when they see it. The same goes for music. Music is in the ears of the beholder, people, and cannot be compared or graded, no matter how much we want to. FYI, I am classically schooled in the crafts of music, specializing in saxophone up to a point where I couldve gone professional. Reading paper music, or blowing it on my saxamaphone is not exactly a problem (won a few contests and stuff), but I never composed during those years. Also, being a sax player, Im more a weird improv riffs guy than a harmonics guy, the latter more suited to the c64s environment and the former blocking me in fully expressing that what makes me tick musically. Oh well. The day Ill compose a tune of which I can truly say, hey, thats *me*!, Ill let you all know... for now, yes, lets do this for fun, everyone?
12. Nov 2003 16:49
Just a last effort to put some things straight and calm the tempers down:
Nobody really talked of "worshipping" Ed and I dont know how that "Ed for president" has come up really, apart from maybe being an ironically exaggerated remark to grab you by the balls, SB. ;-) Nobody is really trying to walk in Eds footsteps, the few who do mostly fail miserably. So, to sum it up: The foundations of classical SID music are not in danger of razed and rebuild upside down by a horde of Eds followers. All some people said was that they respect his works, because they have some affection to his music. I for one like some of his tunes (beware, not all! Some even give me a headache). And hes by far not my favourite musician on the C64 either, there are about 50 I like better. But when I have this special mood I venture into his directory and occasionally catch myself listening to some of his tunes pretty long. Last time I must have fallen in trance somehow, as the counter of BOOC (from the Made Measures Are Broken musicdisk) was at 40:00 when I decided that this tune had played long enough... ;-)
12. Nov 2003 16:54
pi: Yes, having an IQ above 35, I understand that, I still think itd be a useful feature.
12. Nov 2003 17:08
Not possible to make. There are no profiles. This is free, although moderated, discussion.
12. Nov 2003 17:11
Ok,ppl, you conviced me... Right now I am listening to ALL SIDS on a real C64 II with a 8580-Chip. I am at tune #14 right now, and I havent heared anything special yet. But I am sure I will be surprised soon.
12. Nov 2003 17:15
>There are still some people composing their tunes
>using the Goat Tracker for Windows :)
Its only an ok solution of course, now that it works with Catweasel SID, but no-one seems to want to be much helpful to learn JCH editor, which judging from some of the entries sounds to be the best editor.
12. Nov 2003 17:23
 Merman, I dont dismiss Ed completely - I kinda like "Last Approach" and "Tin" and I said several times, on various occassions, that they didnt deserve such low places at certain parties. But compare my opinions to those of other people taking part in the discussion - then it, admittedly, might sound harsh; because it highly differs from speaking of Ed as a genius/president/God/whatever.
 Vip, please give me an example that Ed has deliberately "chosen to part with other forms of music and try something different". What OTHER forms of music? It might be Waceks case, Goto80s case, your case finally, but not Eds IMO. If you can prove me wrong, please do.
 Ill repeat this once again: I really dont see any problem in having one Ed on the scene. The problem is that certain people, striving to make music on the commy, and not knowing much about how to compose a pleasant tune, take Ed as their role model and produce cacophony. Just because its easier and doesnt require much of an effort...
 ...and thats why I compared those experiments to the experiments of Coltrane etc. - to state that doing something different (in the meaning of atonal/dissonant) should be preceded by doing a lot of classic, normal, standard music. The results of searching for new musical forms or languages are better then, and such innovation is a real innovation, not wandering in the darkness.
12. Nov 2003 17:24
 Steppe, I recognize myself a lot in what you said about the listening to Ed experience :).  Mmm, what the best editor is, is a discussion leading to what the best music is, and then were back in the old lets grade and compare boat. Im a tracker fan myself, so I prefer editors like JCH and SDI, but to say theyre the best is speculative at best...
12. Nov 2003 17:25
Helpful? You know that there are a vast amount of docs for it? Confusing ones, admittedly, but still. I got to know the basics of it after playing around for about two days. Noting special evolved from it yet... *sigh*
Besides, there are a LOT of worktunes from DRAX, Laxity, etc available that should help you get started easily. And if you need some more special guidance, just depack a tune of choice in Syndroms JCH depacker.
12. Nov 2003 17:38
 Mmmm, I would go on a limb, though, and admit that some editors allow more freedom and features than others, and so far, JCH has given me a lot of freedom...
 Let me ask you this, SB: is it *necessary* to be pre-schooled and have learned all the classical music forms? Maybe it is if youre making a living of this and wish to please the listeners so they buy a reproduction of your composition. Maybe it is for a certain school of thought not unlike the classical school of art claiming that modern art requires no skill. If the only way of progression (even that is relative) means that you have to learn *everything from the past*, then making music would become a nightmare. I mean, I play the saxophone, but dont know a thing about the clarinette or the horn, which are the predecessors of the sax. Must I stop playing because I havent mastered those instruments, or the violins and panflutes before that? Must I stop making music because I havent truly studied any of the pre-16th century music and the elements presented there? At some point, you must shed off these things (or not if you dont know them) and say, this is my music, and I feel good about it (whether or not this music will be successful with others, is another question). And thats what I think about it. I dont know much about Eds background, you should ask him, but from my perspective, it doesnt matter much, whatever the answer may be.
12. Nov 2003 17:40
Ok,ppl, you conviced me... Right now I am listening to ALL SIDS on a real C64 II with a 8580-Chip. I am at tune #14 right now, and I havent heared anything special yet. But I am sure I will be surprised soon.
12. Nov 2003 17:50
Oh, just wanted to share an example of how art has evolved: I went to an exposition in Amsterdam to enjoy a few of Bacons works (Im a Bacon and Giger fan). There, I saw a famous artist (at least, thats what the bystanders said) perform his artform: Live Art. Live, he made his Art, which consisted of cutting cardboard into peculiar shapes and sticking small wooden sticks through them to create objects. It didnt exactly move me and I wanted to go on, but then I saw someone liking it and asking for a price for one of the (small) objects. 500 Euro, the famous artist said, and guess what? That person bought a piece of cut cardboard and a few wooden sticks for 500 Euro. Personally, I could only shake my head and *might* have considered taking an object with me if it was a free gift from the museum, but hey - thats how art works.
12. Nov 2003 17:51
By the way, let me express my utmost regards to people who give me anonymous "1" marks in CSDb. Right now there are three of you, impatiently awaiting more to come.
12. Nov 2003 17:58
Steppe, did you ever succeed in depacking a tune with Syndroms tool and letting it run in JCH? I have always miserably failed.
I for one would be very interested in how other people do their sounds in jch, just to get a bit further in the learning curve.
someone who had to learn how to build instruments from scratch :(
12. Nov 2003 18:13
Helpful? You know that there are a vast amount of docs for it? Confusing ones, admittedly, but still. I got to know the basics of it after playing around for about two days. Noting special evolved from it yet... *sigh*
Besides, there are a LOT of worktunes from DRAX, Laxity, etc available that should help you get started easily. And if you need some more special guidance, just depack a tune of choice in Syndroms JCH depacker.
12. Nov 2003 18:17
Damn, I swear that double posting wasnt me! :-)
: I checked out a few of Danes tunes, they depacked fine in the JCH depacker by The Syndrom.
Gonna have to try some of Vips tunes in the next days, Im still amazed how he gets that "screaming guitar" sounds! :-)
12. Nov 2003 18:22
 Mmm.. Ive never used Syndroms tool to learn instruments and stuff, what I did use were the worktunes delivered with the editor, which helped me understand the docs and how you could build the instruments, how the controls worked etc. Once I was familiar enough with the interface, I never looked back and began making instruments from scratch. This is vital so that you can develop a sound that is you, and also because existing instrument sets only work well with eachother, they have a synergy of sorts. Its difficult to just import stuff from one tune to another, unless theyre really basic percussion instruments. The more important stuff (melody, filters, pulse) is tweaked as the tune takes shape. If you learnt how to build instruments from scratch, youre already far in the learning curve - keep going and youll do well, Im sure.
12. Nov 2003 18:24
 :) Vip, so now you know exactly how I feel when someone is naming Ed a genius.
Even taking into consideration that tastes in art differ, I cant help thinking that something else than taste works here. People WANT to be regarded as trendy and progressive, no one wishes to be labeled Small Minded Conservative Boy. By appreciating objects and perhaps even buying them, people state "hey, I understand the modern art; I stand out of the common herd". Thats a nice feeling for sure, to be proudly different, and thanks to such a feeling people start to REALLY like objects. But is it a matter of taste, or a matter of motivation?
Such art has some merit as long as it is regarded progressive (and therefore serves as a source of glory to its fans), but as soon as it becomes passe, its merit also disappears, methinks.
12. Nov 2003 18:27
Steppe : Is it also possible to load DMC-Musics in JCH? Is it possible to load all c64-music-formats with JCH? If not, is there a musictool which is able to do it or at least half of it?
12. Nov 2003 18:29
 Steppe, thats simple... just take a $41 waveform and change it into a $47 waveform after a period of time. The problem is that, to get the effect, the tracks must be placed in the right order and the other instruments be of a certain type, otherwise the effect breaks down into something less aesthetic. The fun part is, though, that it allows you to experiment around with those side effects... sometimes, something interesting pops up.
12. Nov 2003 18:29
Remark : Its just, I would like to read the melody-notes of Johanners Bjerregaardss "sweet" respectivley Glenn Rune Gallefoss "Sweet JB".
Int Forgot To Write IT ensity
12. Nov 2003 18:31
Haha, Intensity! Thats not possible, at least not that I knew of. Every editor has plusminus its completely own format which cant be converted to another one.
IIRC, back then there was Romuzak by Digital Marketing, it was able to import Soundmonitor tunes. But when i tried it myself it failed on all my tunes...
12. Nov 2003 18:34
Vip, thanks for the hint. I already figured it must have something to do with syncing (I used that effect quite heavily in some of my Soundmonitor tunes). But doesnt the waveform table get pretty long with such an instrument?
12. Nov 2003 18:38
Now I am sad... :( I think I have to mail GRG or JB for this.
12. Nov 2003 18:39
steppe, who cares about the waveform table lenght in jch .. :D
i only once ended up at the boundaries of said table, and that was while i was doing an 8-speed tune.
12. Nov 2003 18:48
But it takes like 3 or 5 minutes to enter all the values!!! :-o
12. Nov 2003 18:57
 Hehe, so I had post ... well, well, well... :) Anyway, SB, when you are implying that something else is at work here, namely the lets fake interest movement, then were treading on a different puppy alltogether. I know it exists as well, but it cannot be part of the discussion because now malignant reasons enter play. But at least, in that case, the jokes on them, because when the fad disappears, theyll be stuck with some very expensive art which is suddenly useless, and theyll feel sick for a while :). As to the statement that art becomes passe, thats very wrong. Art is timeless. Just look at the many people who collect old Egyptian art because theyre intrigued or mesmerized by it. Just look at the many people interested in classical arts... does the fact that theyre passe mean that their merit also disappears? Not a chance :)
12. Nov 2003 19:00
 Well Steppe, no pain, no gain :). And there are quite a few tricks to reduce the pain... Im sure youll find them out by depacking my tunes :). As long as you remain yourself and not become a copy of me and my evil tricks, Ill be happy ;).
12. Nov 2003 19:07
Its very easy to modify the JCH-player to allow for an in-arpeggio table command to alter arpeggiospeed. This reduces the length of said table significantly.
12. Nov 2003 19:09
Or use the one available in the editor itself for a similar result.
12. Nov 2003 19:12
People, dont use NEW sid for playing OLD sid tunes. If you dont have 6581, use Vice instead. It isnt that unaccurate as it seems. I have found many 6581 SC3 compotunes sounding terrible on new sid.
12. Nov 2003 19:13
No worries, Vip. Those worktunes with stolen instruments will probably never be released to the public. Im not like that, in the end it wouldnt really feel like my own work. But its interesting to play around a little. :-)
12. Nov 2003 19:35
Vip, Id like to stretch our discussion beyond this forum, it becomes interesting.
Art becomes passe AND loses merit in the eyes of certain people or not. Thats what were used to call "test of time". If you consider something plainly beautiful and moving, it will most likely stand that test. If you appreciate something just because its different, it wont. Because it once is progressive, providing that nice feeling of standing out of the crowd for its supporters; but besides that, it turns out to be empty as soon as it ceases to be trendy. Then its (now former) fans search the market, hoping to find something modern enough to give them the feeling of being elite, so they still would be able to label others conservative.
12. Nov 2003 20:02
VIP, YOU ARE THE ANTICHRIST (666)!!! Oh well, when I think about it this handle is already given away. ;)
12. Nov 2003 21:20
SB, youre mixing two different beasts here. First off, Id like to remove the I like this because its different thing - thats illusionary art appreciation, a fata morgana that has no value and has nothing to do with real feelings, only manipulation. So lets talk about the test of time concept for works of art that you really appreciate, on all the appropriate levels, and why this concept fails. Its true that those things were attracted to stick with us for a long time. But, to make its value depend on our personal bias (they no longer pass the test), is incorrect. To give a very crude example: as a kid, I loved the Ghostbusters tune (you know the one), even without seeing the movie. I whistled the tune every day, had it in my head and felt really good. I was a goddamn sunshine. My classmates of that time would approve :). But nowadays, it no longer touches me on the same level. Sure, theres a nostalgic feeling and understanding of the technical merits of the tune but thats coupled to the good times back then, not the tune. So the Ghostbusters tune would no longer pass my test of time. Is it therefore no longer a piece of art? Is it redundant all of a sudden? I dont think so. There will still be people for whom the Ghostbusters tune passes their test of time. Hence, it continues to be a piece of art (in reality, it was a piece of art since its inception). Art is of all ages, its appreciation by one person evolves over time... that does not decrease the artistic value of a certain piece. Thus, this test of time is irrelevant for the piece itself - it *is* relevant to communicate ones personal art experiences to other people, though.  Well... know that Im born on March 26 in 1976... thus my birthdate is 26 03 76... paste 7 and 2 together (72), add 0 (72) and divide by 3... thats 24. 2+4=6. Paste the remaining two sixes and youve got... 666. pH33R M3! ;D
12. Nov 2003 21:33
Ah, so you are a very devilish V.I.P.? :P Whatever, I havent understood your calculus, maybe its my English or my math. Or maybe you have been discussing too much with SB!!! :D Lets do an infernal CO-OP-Tune to be called "by Vip 666 and InSATANy", hehe.
12. Nov 2003 22:17
13. Nov 2003 08:42
: SB, OMG! Im surely not scared being not regarded as trendy and progressive, and ppl usually doesnt listen to certain kind of music only in order to mark themself as "trendy" (I hope so!). My "Eds a genius" sounds like "Mike Oldfield is my True God, Ill offer my mum for him" :D BTW my SIDs generally are no trendy or progressive or whatever. Smalltown boy, just in order to deflect this discussion: are you enjoying the compo? :D
13. Nov 2003 10:05
Cool, another sax player (but at a much higher level than I ever have been - playing in a concert band, but never mastered even the simplest vibrato, so no soloist). When writing music for other wind instruments, I learn by mistakes and hopefully get better for each attempt (just like one would get better for each SID music written).
13. Nov 2003 11:23
oh yes..if ed is so great and people like him so much, why doesnt he place better in partycompos? and if aphex twin is so great, why is britney spears always beating him in the salescharts?
ive seen quite alot of what smallview boy is saying here already on pouet in the discussions caused by chimera/halcyon and _/$. first sb tries to tell us that ed sucks, this doesnt work since quite a few enjoy eds music. then we get to know that ed doesnt know what hes doing. still no luck. sb tries harder, ed will bring a plague of lousy followers, just like chimera and _ would on pc. i still wait to see a list of all those crappy ed copiers.
it seems like the only thing worse than a production you dont like, is one you dont like, but other praise.some get very confused and upset by this. one of the more desperate ideas that appeared on pouet were the ones claiming that people actually didnt like those arty pc demos, they were just pretending. and suprise! now sb claim that people are embracing things like eds music just to show off how trendy and superior they are. if you find it so hard to understand other peoples taste,then stfu and go compose is actually a quite good suggestion, atleast to stop you from embarassing yourself.
but atleast you seem to have gotten yourself and your music some attention, judging by the votes on csdb which you apperantly keep very good track of. go on checking the votes, go on composing, and go on tearing your hair out wondering why ed gets more attention and appreciation.
13. Nov 2003 11:57
Death metal, napalm death, grindcore, modern jazz, contemporary house & techno, eminem, puff diddy, dj-sets, telephone ringtones........ All this debate about ED makes me completely hardcore napalm techno jazz bored... Especially when some people think that the most important thing in the world is making your opponent in the discussion look stupid. I cant help it but some people have killed the discussion... shame on you boys and girls.
13. Nov 2003 12:21
My sentiments exactly, CreamD... cant we just try and discuss things like reasonable people? Also, to the people who voted those 1s on CsDB for SB because of this discussion: what!? Im already not a fan of voting and grading in general, but political voting? What gain is there to use this path to hurt SB for his point of view? Tjongejongejonge.
13. Nov 2003 12:28
Downwoting a decent musician because of his opinion? That reminds me of one fine quote. Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I?m not sure about the former. (Albert Einstein)
13. Nov 2003 12:29
Pfuh! Beguinners! I voted 1 by myself in CSDB months ago! :D
13. Nov 2003 13:13
Yes, Ive noticed. It wasnt really reasonable, Id advise you to delete that... :)
13. Nov 2003 13:19
700 reactions and counting. Could we please all be reasonable enough to realise that the CSDB voting system really isnt that well used, thus doesnt really say or mean that much. And whoevers downvoting SB is a twat. I thought you were to rate him as musician, not because of his opinions. If you feel his music is horrible, then thats another thing altogether, but Im sure the sensible people unable to filter this comment already realise that. Lets hope you all do, voters or not.
13. Nov 2003 14:59
all you had to do to get people on your side and kill a discussion were you insulted peoples taste and intelligence was to get a few downvotes? if id known this i would have created fake accounts and voted myself down long ago
13. Nov 2003 16:01
Now Ive sent my votes. Twice even - first based on the old ordering of songs, and after realizing it has changed, reshuffling in the new order (6581 A-C-D-E-H-CH-I-J-L-N-O-P-S-T and 8580 C-D-F-G-I-K-L-M-O-S-T-W -- is it Slovakian alphabet order which makes CH come after H? :-)
13. Nov 2003 16:10
Anders, yes we have CH. Its a sound somewhere between k and h .
13. Nov 2003 16:11
Hollowman I think your last post is unreasonably ridiculous while my mood is ridiculously intolerant. I know what causes my mood for chist sake I really don?t get what has gone into you, I always thought you have been able to judge the things from the decent perspective. Now I don?t see any distance, just unnecessary sarcasm in your post.
13. Nov 2003 16:12
And btw. I took the cheat discussion out of this thread while most people discussed ED here. They could have done the same, I think they even should do the same now and continue discussing their musical tastes in CSDB forums instead of this one.
13. Nov 2003 16:35
 You play da sax, man? :) =) Great to see another one from da Brotherhood of Kkooll. *hi5s* Anders, proposition: how about we do a co-op tune with nothing but piano chords, very light percussion and then us, inserting some sax solos (2 voices - 1 partially used by light percussion)? Lets just improvise to the max. Let me know if youre interested - I hope you compose in JCH...  *nods*, and its weird how briefly using Ed as an argument about something else suddenly escalates into arguing about nothing but Ed.. oh well.
13. Nov 2003 17:09
 Apparently The Magic Roundabo had the same idea...
13. Nov 2003 17:26
Err.. how do you record your sax improvision into JCH? Or did you mean you improvise and later transcribe it into "written" (or tracked) music?
Btw, JCH is one of the editors I tried and failed to use a few years ago. Since there supposedly is some docs, maybe I can have another try.
13. Nov 2003 18:07
Sort of. The idea is to set up a good chord/percussion base to get started (can be extended later) and then we write improvized solos into the tracks. We switch leads everytime the chord pattern repeats (or changes into a different one). Since the 2nd voice is partially registered to percussion, the lead player will have one voice all to himself where the other supports the lead player with couple of harmonics. And dont worry about JCH... I can set up the first part of the tune to give you something to work from. Once you see the tracks, it shouldnt be a problem. Btw, what kinda sax do you play irl? Mines an alto (although I secretly always wanted to play the goddamn soprano).
13. Nov 2003 18:44
I also play the alto - in May I picked up a Selmer SA80 in very nice condition (almost no scratches or dents, but one or two pads might want to be replaced over time) for 12500 SEK (roughly 1500 USD or 1400 EUR). That is more money than Ive ever spent on a computer for that matter (and not many computers have a second-hand value of 1500 USD after twenty years, not unless theyre collectors items anyway).
13. Nov 2003 18:52
And it deserves that price. Ive played a Selmer for years, and its simply the best mark out there. Beautiful sound, very stable and allowed me to do lots of tricks :). Id say 1500 dollars is more than worth it - for a mint piece, Id go up to 2500 dollars if need be.
13. Nov 2003 19:23
This discussion about ED... I havent followed the discussion from VIP and SB from start to end, but what I can say as a composer who does rather technoid or trancy sounding musics (in "real" they say "Electronica"), I think that EDs music is NEEDED in the scene as the scene needs more GOOD Electronica. I remember a lot of people complaining about typical boring sounding techno-sounds for years and wishing there would be more quality in those tunes. Now ED appears with fresh industrial sounds and a complete unique style introducing a nice form of Electronica for the C64, just like others like Jeff/Crest comes up with great Trance-Sounds, also introducing a nice form of C64-Electronica, and people are still complaining about this matter. In my eyes this isnt logical. You ppl talking negative about ED, stop whining and get a dummy. Furthermore sit down and do better Electronica.
13. Nov 2003 20:33
creamd, i am very sorry for not taking the downvoting of sb seriously enough. perhaps i should send him my condonlences and some flowers. but you see, he is not the only victim. i just checked my votes at csdb and found out that two persons considered my coding skills only worth a 2! shouldnt someone comfort me and give me atleast a hug? i promise i will shut up after that and let you guys go on writing i know who made tune x! undisturbed for another couple of hundred posts
13. Nov 2003 21:19
Anyway, Anders, if youre still interested in the idea, give me a mail (Im sure you know my addy) and we can go into more specifics.
13. Nov 2003 22:30
Vip, Zapac: and to think that the whole musical equipment of mine (guitar, bass, amplifiers, effects) didnt cost me more than 500 $ :)
Hollowman: lets stop this discussion at the current point, PLEASE, because I feel like speaking to a wall somehow. (Vip, that doesnt apply to you.) Think of yourself as of a man with a wide view and broad mind, entitled to consider those not sharing your enlightened opinions as pinheads (small minded, with a small view etc.). Apparently being in such a state is really important to you. Id hate to deny you such a pleasure.
*gives Hollowman a hug*
13. Nov 2003 22:32
*Hollowman runs away in disgust*
13. Nov 2003 22:34
 Good point with that guessing stuff ;-) SB was quite too overmotivated about this but at I must confirm that he has quite good insight into the C64 music scene. I always considered him as begninner, but seems like it doesnt matter how new you are into the scene if you really try you can learn a lot in about it in few years ;-). Or maybe he was listening to sid music for ages and only became active later. Dunno, but I respect him even when is so annoyingly over-enthusiastic about expressing of his opinion ;-). I like to chat about SID music with people ho like it and he is one of those.
Also good point that there are more victims. Thats why we should start to care more. Not just hug each other and pity ourselves ;-)Anyway a giving ya a big *hug*
13. Nov 2003 22:36
SB I also have one advice, lets not say lets STOP discussion coz I think the oponnent is a wall.. you cant calm the fire by pouring more oil into it ;-)
14. Nov 2003 00:11
People, I have an idea: what do you think about publishing the whole jury-voting once it ends? I mean, not just results, but also every participants Top Ten.
It would be really very interesting to see what tastes do C64 composers have. Also, it could serve as a huge source of positive feedback. Im all for that, waiting for your (and Romans, obviously) reactions. If anyone has something against making his Top Ten available to the public, just say it. But I hope none of you will reply in the negative :)
14. Nov 2003 00:11
CreaMD: perhaps youre right. Ignore that wall remark, but dont forget to read the rest ;)
14. Nov 2003 00:21
 Good idea, I second that! :-)
14. Nov 2003 00:50
Yup Ive already received about half of the jury ranks and it *IS* interesting to see what tastes do C64 composers have ;-) Its quite hard to please them! Im really happy that I had this crazy jury idea ;-) It seems to work wery well and it will for sure bring interesting results.
14. Nov 2003 01:27
nice idea, im all up for that.
14. Nov 2003 01:30
Indeed that?s very interesting and I don?t have anything to hide. So release that top 10. I?m curious!
One Hit Wonder composer
14. Nov 2003 02:57
Agreed, release it, i dont mind ;)
Another participating composer
14. Nov 2003 03:36
YEAH, GOOD IDEA TO RELEASE IT..
The dish man
14. Nov 2003 06:16
14. Nov 2003 08:49
: For $2500, I would expect a Mark VI, not a SA80. Yep, Ill contact you if I find motivation. Btw, one of my favourite SIDs to play live would be the slow song #5 (counted as in HVSC) from Hubbards Final Synth Sample 1. I liked it so much I even transcribed it to VIC-20 and Plus/4 (unreleased versions).
: Good idea. Btw, you might want to publish a deadline for public votes (which I couldnt find one on the page yesterday).
14. Nov 2003 08:50
Im all for making the votes public. Even wrote motivations for them and all.
14. Nov 2003 08:53
 Mh, ok! Let the votes pop up!
14. Nov 2003 08:57
 Nah, really? Did you converted that music on TED too? Wanna listen toooo....maybe in the next +4 MagerValp demo?
14. Nov 2003 09:56
Well,it just depends on the quality of the instrument... a completely mint Selmer is that valuable, and if the sound is right (it usually is), its worth shelling out the cash for it. I have never played a Mark, though - only Selmers and Buffet-Crampons. Its not like you buy a new one every month ;). Im a bit reserved about it, honestly. Id rather just list the 10 tunes Id like most -no order, no comments. My reservations come from the experience with the c64.sk pixel competition; some jury comments there were rather bland and offensive, insulting for some entries, even. If the votes are made public, lets not repeat that precedent here.
14. Nov 2003 10:16
Vip, but from From 43 tunes you have to pick your top 10. I dont think you will talk negatively about your 10 favourites that would be quite weird ;-). Anyway Commenting on tunes is a good idea but do it only if you wish so and if you have time. Dont forget that supposed deadline for jurors is on Sunday 23:55 ;-) Then Ill solve individual delays personally with the jurors who are late.  As far as deadline for public voters is concerned, I will shut it down as soon as I get enough votes so everyone if you want results fast GO VOTE NOW! or after this weekend. I hope you will spend it spend it listening to the SC3 musics ... Ill do! ;-)
14. Nov 2003 10:39
: It is rather dull, but I could send you some sources. Still, I think there ought to be much better TED music (isnt there a TED-version of SIDwinder, or does it only work with a SID-card?)
: Heh.. Selmer Mark VI is among many musicians, collectors and wannabee musicians *the* saxophone. I compared a 1960-ish Mark VI with a 1980-ish Super Action 80 and assumed you as being semi-professional was well acquainted with the different models already. :-)
14. Nov 2003 10:49
 SIDwinder+4 runs only with SIDcard, as the prg itself is made for SID chips only. There are no truly good TEDmusic editors around, dunno why...
14. Nov 2003 11:37
I found the 110 Hz lower frequency a limitation when trying to make bass lines. Unless someone else makes an editor, maybe you could ask for TDI (as the follow-up to SDI and VDI).
14. Nov 2003 11:40
Vip: Negative comment about a release == insult?
14. Nov 2003 13:19
Oh... no, Im simply not into models... I know the general brands, and thats it. When trying out a sax, I look at it on a case-by-case basis - I try it out and check stability, sound, comfort, and a few other things before I like it. Thats all the info I need - theres no urge to then look at what the model exactly is. Also know that after my decision to not go pro, Ive become more or less a casual jam once in a while player. Id probably need a month of intense training to get back to my old edge again... No, not if theres an explanation accompanying it. This wasnt the case in the c64.sk pixel compo, where some comments were of the sucks and I have no intention of saying why variety. Those are insults. That event is also one of the reasons why Ive become very reluctant to pixel anymore. Before reading the comments, I thought, "Hey, Im gonna read why the jurors like or dont like an entry. Cool". After reading the comments (not just for my entry, all the comments), I thought, "The Spanish Inquisition was milder than this. Funny how base people are in their judging and how unable they are in explaining it. That was the last time I enter a pixel compo". Admittedly, a few jurors did it right, the rest was a disappointment to say the least.
14. Nov 2003 13:26
Vip, that Pixelcompo jury problem can be solved. Give it chance it was just beginning.
14. Nov 2003 13:39
Anyway, I wouldnt say that publishing "10 best tunes according to each composer participating" could be an insult for anyone (provided he/she isnt extremely touchy and megalomaniac at the same time).
14. Nov 2003 16:12
Vip: Im completely astonished. Ive noticed that some people are a bit sensitive, but being insulted enough to stop pixelling because some people wrote comments in a way you dont approve of, thats pretty extreme, I have to say. But well, people are different, and thats one of the things that make life the wonderful and exciting adventure it is, right?
14. Nov 2003 16:20
14. Nov 2003 16:42
: Ok. Maybe one is more interested in looking up all models of something (no matter what the area is) if one is about to buy from it. Btw, Selmer now has a new Reference Alto*, which supposedly is a Mk VI replica but with modern keywork. Might be droolworthy for people like us. :-P
14. Nov 2003 17:54
 I havent stopped pixelling, Puterman. Well, rather, I havent stopped drawing. Whether or not Ill pixel it is something else. Either way, the feelings still there, but its not what it used to be. Its the whole happy "Lets wire" attitude of these days... but thats a discussion Ive seen enough of. What I said is that Im not entering pixel compos anymore.  Droolworthy? Thats an _understatement_... OMG that things hot! Thanks *much*, Anders :). I think I know what mint goody Santa will be dropping off under my Xmas tree this year. (he probably wont show up for, like the next 30 years, but...)
15. Nov 2003 00:09
Roman, how many jury votes youve got so far?
15. Nov 2003 09:46
About half and something? I dont know the exact number as I didnt have time to check everything very carefully lately.
15. Nov 2003 14:11
Hey Roman, I hope you have got my final votes? :D
15. Nov 2003 16:14
15. Nov 2003 20:31
 Not too many :(
Perhaps it would be wise to send out a friendly reminder... Something like "hey, what the f*** are you playing at, VOTE OR DIE!!!"
15. Nov 2003 21:58
(the above post shouldnt be treated too seriously, of course - in case you wonder)
16. Nov 2003 20:47
As I said, the idnividual delays will be solved. First I have to get the idea how much jury votes and audience votes I got (its total mess this year, I will have to find some better input way and not do it all by e-mail) and then Ill contact the delayed jurors.
16. Nov 2003 22:10
dane, im with you on that jch-matter. theres a lot of potential hiding inside the editor, and i wonder if even jch knew about all that, because the tunes he did with his latest official version always sounded rather limited.
im sure i still didnt hear all of the tunes that were ever done in jch, but then again im too lazy to crawl through the whole hvsid to eventually find a header that reveals the responsible editor.
17. Nov 2003 01:42
Well, votes delivered. Why wait ? When is sidcompo 4 going to be ?
17. Nov 2003 02:29
Next year. 8.october-8.november 2004
17. Nov 2003 13:17
What about to replace the c64.sk Sidcompo with a general (demo-)compo in future where everyone can participate either with a demo, a sidtune or graphics?
17. Nov 2003 13:42
cjrayne, that would pretty much destroy the idea of having a sidcompo, right?
17. Nov 2003 14:34
There is quite a lot of parties where the demos can be shown and creeator can experience a great atmosphere when his entry is shown. I think music, gfx, intro compo can be done enjoyable online and even more fair than if there had to be hours long compo session where audience would have to spend 2-3 hours of constant loud waveform braiwash or watch many routines running on the big screen. Also at parties preselection would kill the chance to compete for many of entries so SID compo online is okay. As far as demos are concerned I think that today the best place to release them are the parties. Although I also think that separate release (out of party) is maybe better, because then the production stands out on it own while in the partycompo pack it can usually be lost in the pack with the other releases.
17. Nov 2003 14:35
Anyway there is going to be Christmas Demo compo this year too so if you wanna make demos join it!
17. Nov 2003 16:24
Dammit, so soon? I better start composing *right now*! =)
17. Nov 2003 16:36
I would never group the different genres at which to compete (graphics, music, code+graphics+music+design) together since each require different efforts from the creators (a standard demo takes considerably longer to create than a piece of music or a graphic). Also, the effect each genre has is completely different (look at the Mona Lisa, then listen to Bach, then watch Heaven 7 on PC and tell me if the experiences are equivalent or not), so mixing them is a bad bad idea. Separate compos, of course, are okay, but as CreamD said, Id rather see a demo compo on a party since the atmosphere is so much cooler (itS weird, but you can just feel the solidarity amongst everyone while watching) and everything runs on a huge screen which is an INCREDIBLE experience (except at a *certain* party where the projector showed false colors and ruined my day and... aehm sorry Im gonna shut up about that). Short demos is something else, though - a 4k compo or 256b compo could be held online as its not *that* much work. Music and graphics compos online... well yeah, why not? c64.sk already has a few examples of those... Hmm, I did an Im dreaming of a White Xmas cover last year... what Xmas song should I vip-ify this year? Suggestions? =)
17. Nov 2003 17:32
Cover any Christmas song, provided youll make it sound like Dane, hell appreciate that for sure :D
17. Nov 2003 18:23
CreaMD... I know the votes will take a long time to organise, and I certainly dont want to appear bothersome, but when dya think well have the results? This week? ;)
Congrats to everyone who entered! Some of the music is outstanding! :)
17. Nov 2003 18:38
Im waiting for 9 jurors to handle me their sheets. Then Ill maybe wait until the end of this week for late voters. Ill wrap it all up this weekend.
17. Nov 2003 18:39
SB, sure I will, provided I get some royalties once Vip starts selling it as a single.
17. Nov 2003 18:52
: A while ago, I heard a reggae version (RL music, not SID :-) of Marys Boy Child which was quite good. Once I toyed on the Amiga with When You Wish Upon a Star in an odd 7/4 beat, but I never got the right feel into it.
17. Nov 2003 20:07
Sorry, SB and D, but vip-ify means vip-ify ;). Thanks for the suggestion Anders, and I know what Im going to cover now (but I wont tell what - yet). Reggae, you say? :)
17. Nov 2003 20:39
A hard task awaits you. Havent heard a single decent reggae tune on C64.
But if you cant break the spell, who then ;)
17. Nov 2003 21:06
How about blues tune is there any decent blues tune?
17. Nov 2003 21:12
Blues, not really, but something very close:
17. Nov 2003 21:31
Ehm, how about Scortia and Blueshit.sid? Over 10 years after his last tune, Scortia keeps rullaring us all...
17. Nov 2003 21:31
(and I think Scortia thought long and hard about that title ;)
17. Nov 2003 21:35
Scortias the man. One of the more underrated musicians in HVSC, I dare say.
17. Nov 2003 21:37
Amen, D. I dont think theres a single weak tune in his playlist. Its all just sooo goddamn slick... (pers. fave: Equinox)
17. Nov 2003 21:50
Canes & Plotting rule! :)
17. Nov 2003 22:01
How about modern jazz? One of my favorites is the opening tune on "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" - I just wish it was longer than one minute.
17. Nov 2003 22:18
V, scortia continued on the amiga in tsl. though those tunes rocked as well, they cant be beaten by what he did on the c64.
17. Nov 2003 22:27
I know. I worked a bit on Amiga as well. The realm of 16-bit samples and multitracking is an entirely different puppy indeed - never did really well on it. I guess its because the SID part in your body is flabbergasted... "What? More than 3 voices? Samples which *actually* sound clean? Blasphemy!?" And thus, the broken spirit returns to the SID, where synth sounds actually sound cool... ;)
17. Nov 2003 22:59
Though I might sound like a broken record, I too have Equinoxe as a favourite. Followed closely by Nebulas, of course.
The D man
17. Nov 2003 23:09
By the way, whos that infringing on my copyrighted d-letter? Though Im more of a capital D man, someone might mistake you for me, mister d if you keep doing devious devilry like mimicking my diabolic signature. Darn!
17. Nov 2003 23:34
... Thanx, and thanx for not shouting at me either! :) I look forward to the results! ;)
18. Nov 2003 00:02
 Vip: (another nice number, man, you do that on deliberately, dont you? :>) perhaps thats why I cant squeeze the most from SID. I came completely other way around, first multitrack editors, high quality sound and studio work, then C64... :)
18. Nov 2003 00:27
D, ill trade my lowercase d for an original swedish monchichi. that way were both satisfied.
18. Nov 2003 00:30
Capital S, sounds exactly like what i did, if we add 4chnl protracker tunes and a wee bit of fiddling in AMS before that.
i still dont know why i came back to the c64, but one things for sure - that i didnt regret it. =)
18. Nov 2003 01:36
Well, big D, little d, big S, rngmnn^ et al., I guess were all brothers-in-arms in a way, searching for that ultimate audial challenge where one creates something coo with as little facilities as possible. I for one can hardly live without that typical c64 $41 melody sound... its so gdamn gorgeous. Its also the reason why I dont go chiptune on other computers... they dont have that same sound. Not even close. Other (pc/spectrum) chiptune arpeggios generally sound like chirping noises. Not my cup of tea. Well, anyway, reading the above (people finding the c64) actually moves me *sniff* ;). And it also strengthens my belief that there is more to (c64) music than meets the ear, so to speak...
V, you know who
18. Nov 2003 02:05
well, i spent years of doing chiptunes on amiga and pc, maybe going back to the c64 seemed just like the next logical step. in fact i always wanted to do c64 tunes way earlier again, but i was always under the pressure of lack of space. in the meantime i built up 4 c64s here, feels like im 12 again. and nothing beats the sound of at least 2 c64s playing simultaneously (id like to let all 4 run at the same time, but i only have 2 screens =)
18. Nov 2003 03:44
29."GS86"...is this no problem?
Although its enough rearranged, I think its a cover version from an arcade game "Salamander 2" (Tr.03 "Sensation" on the CD).
18. Nov 2003 08:40
: From what I can hear (compared with a MIDI version by Takashi Toyoshima), "only" the first 40 seconds are similar to Sensation. Lets see what the management thinks.
18. Nov 2003 08:49
 Yeah, caught! I started composing thinkinto Salamander2 2nd level "Sensation" music, in order to evolve it. As Carlsson had just said, "let?s see what the management thinks".
18. Nov 2003 09:12
...though things change since beginning of the tune...
18. Nov 2003 11:05
I havent heard the original tune so I can only judge from what you say. But I think its too late for scandals. Lets move on. (But if you win one of the first 3 places we will for sure put you into hands of inquisition ;-)
18. Nov 2003 11:31
No one expects the Slovakian inquisition!
18. Nov 2003 11:34
LOL! If my tune would reach the top3, Ill be happy when sadomasochistic tortured by Slovakian inquisition! XD
18. Nov 2003 13:19
Confusing. It is only then when the end result is considered good you should stay away from covers, partial or not. I can understand why there is no energy left to start shouting scandal, but it still smells kind of funny to me. Last year I withdrew a cover from this competition, and entered with an original tune instead. I didnt know a mix of the two might have been allowed. Or wait, it might not have since I ended up in the top 3. Forgive me for being confused.
18. Nov 2003 13:38
Dane, Im all against any fake things, cheating manipulation, anything, but when it comes to kicking - anyone who has spent hours (days even) over his work - to butt, and telling him go home, I dont have the guts to do that.
18. Nov 2003 13:38
Unless there is a really good reason for that. Like spanish inquisition for example.
18. Nov 2003 13:41
And I really havent heard the original. Could anyone provide link to mp3? or something?
18. Nov 2003 14:05
According to Dane, I see no problem eventually in retire from compo. Use it as bonus tune.
18. Nov 2003 14:15
Id like to follow up on Dane. Yes, its only a partial cover, but if the original tune was a really popular earwurm, people will associate it indirectly with that tune, giving it a headstart that new tunes dont have. You could argue that this particular tune isnt well-known, so theres no problem, but then there is the above incident with Dane last year. On the other hand, Danes cover was a complete cover of the original (or so I think), while this is a partial copy (40 seconds covered - 4:02 original). So, my intuition is telling me to let it slide and keep GS86 in, BUT with a warning to him and anyone else to keep partial covers out of the compo in the future. No cover = NO COVER. It all feels like drawing a graphic where part is wired from a scan, and the other part is handdrawn... what to do with something like that? Confusing, indeed.
18. Nov 2003 15:08
I picked up the MIDI version on http://www.toyoshima-house.net/music/ (inside an LHA archive) and there is a rock band remix MP3 on http://www.slightlydark.com/~sg/sg3.html (so neither is the original recording).
What were the rules last year? Based on the final results, there seemed to be plenty of covers, but maybe there were two categories of tunes?
18. Nov 2003 15:11
I know a perfect "penalty" for the GS86 musician: you have to develop a playable port of the full Salamander 2 game, now when half the music is written. ;-D
18. Nov 2003 15:58
For all of you who can"t do enough composing:
the christmas demo compo also got a music-compo added this year (:
Hope to listen to cool christmas tunes soon!
18. Nov 2003 16:04
oy2k3cdc/oy2k3cmc-organiser, will the compos/voting be separated, or will everything count as one single compo? anonymous compo or not? will the winner receive a piece of galaktus beard?
18. Nov 2003 16:20
Vip, concerning the incident last year. "Politik & Science" is a cover of two tunes off the Coldplay album - "Politik" and "The scientist". A double partial then. And I might add that neither of the original tunes were in shufflespeed. :)
18. Nov 2003 16:26
Dane, you were allowed to compete in SidWine2 this year with a cover, although the rules were clearly against covering anything. Dont be the first to throw the stone now, please.
18. Nov 2003 16:50
I hope this wont start another flaming debate I had enough! Anyway this years rules are results of requests and debates about how the fair music compo should be organised. I hope this year will show that fair rules produce fair and interesting music results! I really look forward for the final top 10 ;-)
18. Nov 2003 16:51
oy2k3somethingsomethingmore-organiser, that is great to hear! Now I know where to send my Jamaican-styled xmas carol... ;)
That seamlessly brings me to the topic of covers, my last was White Xmas :D. The last serious cover, though, was Physical Presence by Jogeir Liljedahl (I love that tune so very much). That was back in 1999, and it won The Party that year :)... I guess theres nothing wrong with covering a tune one likes, especially since the transition process from Amiga-PC-commercial to SID isnt exactly easy. However, when the rules say no covers allowed, that -imho- means that no covers are allowed in whatever form, size or shape. You gotta play it honest and stick to the rules.
18. Nov 2003 17:19
Roman, let us start another flaming debate. Things were much too quiet lately. :D
18. Nov 2003 17:20
SB, to refresh your memory: "...even loosely based or inspired-by tunes of existing music will be accepted (in this case provide the author/title of the music)
As it can be very soggettive to establish how much based a tune is respect another, my judgement after a submission will be the choice" The author/title was provided well in advance, but Stefano Tognon saw it fit to include my tune.
18. Nov 2003 17:21
CreamD, you know were starting this since there is no word of a cover compo yet, right? :)
18. Nov 2003 17:51
But you must have noticed how scared Im of organising another compo anytime in this century. ;-))
18. Nov 2003 17:56
: Jogeir once also made a cute reggaeish Amiga module "Banana Boat" which might rely too much on sung samples to be easily covered on the SID (unless one does a digi tune). I listened to it and my one and only Bob Marley record (Catch a fire) yesterday.
18. Nov 2003 17:59
Dane, to refresh your memory: he didnt include it because it fitted in the category "loosely based", but because he couldnt find the original.
What I wanted to say was: decision was Stefanos then, nobody (especially no one participating) tried to convince him that he should disqualify your tune. Thats why I dont think its the best idea of yours to comment Lucas case.
18. Nov 2003 18:08
Oh yeah, Banana Boat! Ye mon! :D I remember that one... not one of his best works, though. My personal fave is Physical Presence and a tune (cant remember the title) based on the interplay between an acoustic guitar and a flute. It was a happy-happy tune, but the kind I can tolerate because it was so damn well executed. Stuff that makes ya smile, dig? The second tune of the Love demo by FLT/VD is brilliant as well.
18. Nov 2003 18:17
SB, I wasnt aware of the fact that I was shouting disqualify at the top of my lungs. I dont really mind a cover in the competition personally, as long as such is clearly stated. Was this not the case with the Sidwine compo?
18. Nov 2003 18:34
gah!!! so hard to pick only 10!!! gah!!! :-p
a life in hell or something
18. Nov 2003 18:50
 An excerpt from the rules: "A tune for being valid must be an original composition."
Whether your tune was an original composition, just inspired by Sneaker Pimps, or was it a plain cover, I wouldnt wish to judge. I was glad back then that it was accepted, cos I liked it very much. Ill be also glad if you stop whining about Lucas entry and let Roman decide.
18. Nov 2003 19:22
SB, there is one post from me about the entry in question. The rest is pingpong between you and me about other stuff. Ive whined worse, you know. Im sure you have too.
18. Nov 2003 19:23
And by the way, get the full album Bloodsport from Sneaker Pimps now!
18. Nov 2003 20:20
S: I think D accepts my stand, he just pointed out that he finds it weird that I would consider disqualyfying a tune only when it gets high enough (which is of course quite silly reason to to reinstall the ignored rule ;-), so calm down, there was no need to argue at all.
18. Nov 2003 21:18
7 jurors to go. 2 anounced that theyll send the stuff, others will be bugged again tummorow. 37 valid audience votesheets 4 in-valid. +about 20 audience votesheets by jurors. I was afraid that people wont be willing to undergo the hard torture and listen to 43 tunes, but seems like people are still havin fun ;-). I hope to get some more votesheets until the end of this weeks and then compile all the stuff to a final result.
18. Nov 2003 21:20
 Yea, thats what this forum is for, isnt it? :)
18. Nov 2003 21:22
And no I didnt drink anything the typos are all mine.
19. Nov 2003 00:23
Get to it jurors! me wants results :S
19. Nov 2003 00:47
First of all,tnx for direct the guessing compo entirely on my existence in this compo,Im gladly honoured :D. I wonder how many entries are strongly inspired,e.g., by dark unknown Mozambico bands or whatever, but I simply was very happy to evolve a little tune Id sung for so many weeks driving in Florence in my car, and I wished to make you all listen at this music. I love this compo so much, hence, believe me, it isnt so much important if I would be disqualified or not. My GF enjoyed the musics too, and shed just taken me out of her room in order to being not conditioned by me (Im a real ballbreaker!), but at this point Id asked her about avoid to vote (lol, she was so angry! XD). As real rule, when submitted, my tune passed entire, compact and alive the SupremeSlovakianJudges grid, hence, after all, it should be quite legal as compo entry, but at least...who cares? At this point some info. The real tunes name is "Gradius Supernova 86", and it continues the Konami Kukeiha Club 80s arcade music style, like for the 1st released in SIDwine2, and probably it will be another, as for the "fixer" tunes; I asked to Roman about hiding its name just because it would be easily referred to the 1st title, we wanna hardest fun for "guessers", but now Id seen my name clearly written here, so... Watching at SIDcompo2, my entry, called "Mindfixer", plays a part that reminds the underwater levels of Donkey Kong Land on Gameboy. Thats it, kisses, I truly love you all.:*
19. Nov 2003 01:01
hally/vorc: congrats, you spotted me, you win, you you. Now: if youre an happy owner of the SalamanderNisei CD, you surely like the arcade music; thus, what dya thing about my SIDtune? Do you like it? :)
19. Nov 2003 01:16
Anders, why could exist difficulties in porting Salamander2 on the divine machine that moves marvellous stuff like Razzmatazz or Greg and Fella or Artura? ;)
19. Nov 2003 01:55
Im sure he likes it! ;-) Luca, dont blame him for being pedante ;-). Anyway I havent ucovered your identity! It wasnt meee... It seems like Im loosing the control..
CreaMD bursting to tears..
19. Nov 2003 01:56
Anyway the guessing compo isnt working that well. Only 3 guess lists received from which one is by jury member.. ;-)
19. Nov 2003 06:27
 in fact 80s/90s arcade music is my roots, but moreover, salamander2 soundtracks are famous here in japan (than at least any sid legends ;p)...anyway i like your sidtune so i ached while posting my crappy trivia. for me it sounds like rob hubbard meets salamander2.
btw. i think the midi anders mentioned is close enough to the original.
19. Nov 2003 08:23
 Ooohhh! THIS really counts! :D You win the sid version of your anytime favourite anime! Junlge Taitei? Great Teacher Onizuka? UFO Robo Grendizer? Cowboy Bebop?
19. Nov 2003 11:07
Actually, even with the TXT file, guessing who did which tune is very difficult. Every jury member knows ONE tune (their own) and can probably guess another 5-6. So, say that leaves 37 names to connect to 37 tunes - thats a probability of 37*36*35*34*33....*2 combinations :)
Merman, who knows which tune Richard did :)
19. Nov 2003 12:02
 yeah! thanks for unexpected prize :] cowboy bebop is the coolest among them but my current favorite is "karakurikiden hiwou senki" (do you know?).
19. Nov 2003 13:35
 Oh, the Amino Tetsurous series...never noticed its musics or bgms...:O
19. Nov 2003 14:08
Try to calm down, Luca. As far as I can see (after rereading the thread for a while), its post  that slipped your handle, not hally/vorcs posts. A very unfortunate slip, I might add :(. Furthermore, theres another slip in post ... *sigh* so much for a composers anonimity. On the other hand, if there were only 3 guessing compo entries, we shouldnt worry too much about - I hope. (it may still affect the votes, though)
19. Nov 2003 14:48
: Is the scene really that infected and full of personal vendettas that liking or not liking a production is mainly based on who did it?
19. Nov 2003 14:56
Anders: Some people seem to think so. I suppose they also think that the results in demo compos are unfair, as demos cant be made anonymous.
19. Nov 2003 15:11
Note the use of the verb may - perhaps I shouldve used might. I know how I vote, but I dont know about others, therefore I cant reach any certain conclusions. It was only a sidemark to the main argument, namely the breach of anonimity here.
19. Nov 2003 16:18
Anders. It has never been proven, but still its better to avoid all doubts by making the voting as fair and unbiased as possible.
19. Nov 2003 16:32
Ok. I just made another mental comparison with the MiniGame compo, where every entry is added with full credits as the compo moves on (and the only drawback is that sometimes the author forgets or decides not to include any means of contact). Maybe it works because it is multi-platform (OTOH pou?t is as well).
Regarding something else, if a dedicated cover compo was held, maybe one of its purposes could be to promote artists, composers and SID musicians previously never known covered on SID? I believe there is a lot of both classical and popular artists and genres who never were represented which I find is a shame as Ive used STIL as a musical encyclopedia more than once. :-)
19. Nov 2003 17:36
Right, I was quite surprised to see there isnt a single Miles Davis cover in HVSC. My pick for a cover compo would be "So What", as its nice and easy to transcribe.
Any other suggestions?
19. Nov 2003 18:13
Heh, rather amusing considering the fact that some time ago, there was an article at remix.kwed.org by Waz to ask why there are so little remixes of the lesser known composers in the various directory :). Interesting parallell, wouldnt you agree?
19. Nov 2003 18:25
I wonder why havent he asked me I would tell him why. Coz majority of the people remixing C64 music know s**t about it.
19. Nov 2003 18:46
CreamD, read the article by Warren in the following URL. Youll see he already knows that ;). Also, read the discussion about this article. A few interesting things were stated. URL: http://www.remix64.com/?load=Progression_not_Regression
19. Nov 2003 19:10
Nice rant ;-)
19. Nov 2003 19:31
A bunch of cheap answers in the beginning.. seems like I have to read it till the end..
19. Nov 2003 20:17
I wonder why all the cool composers in the HVSC are bundled together in a VARIOUS directory. WTF is Various about?? Lets make the VDSC ["Various" Directory SID Collection]!!!! :D it would be oh-so-much better :D
19. Nov 2003 20:22
19. Nov 2003 21:37
*rant mode on* Theyre bundled together because all these composers have not been credited in a pre-1990 production, whereas others have. Yes, HVSC is nicely spliced between 1983-1990 and 1990-2003. Also, the names above the Various list are much more popular amongst the masses because, well, the masses only know the c64 from the 1983-1990 period. The tunes there give the masses a nostalgic feeling, and thats why they prefer those tunes. They certainly cannot be bothered to wade through the various folder, only to see hundreds of composers they never heard of, each having almost as many tunes as the top-level composers... to listen to them all and form an opinion about them requires aeons, theres no nostalgia and whatnot, so that idea is quickly dismissed. There is a Best Of Various site, but even those are so many that the masses stay away. The only people who can appreciate the Various folder (and dont need weeks to work into the directory) are those in the demo scene which have remained active or became active in the post 1990 period. And even in the top-level directory, only a few composers are really covered, ie. the archetypes, the leaders: Galway, Gray, Hubbard, Dalglish, even Whittaker *sob*. Tja, nothing to do about that... Warren tried, but the response is very low. People rather have Monty Mole Remix 4 Ultra Revolution X than Inner Logic Remix. They dont know what theyre missing, but thats okay since they dont WANT to know what theyre missing. *rant mode off*
19. Nov 2003 21:44
Lets face the reality: a majority of people keeping HVSC somewhere on their harddisks is interested mainly in classic tunes that they remember from their childhood. So-called "above VARIOUS" composers music is the main reason for HVSC staying attractive in many peoples eyes. It has been proven several times, during the user survey some time ago, for example.
We tried to work out a solution, so modern scene composers would not be buried deep "below VARIOUS", discussed the subject to death, but, quite honestly, we failed. I, personally, want to avoid situation where Im treated the same way Soedesoft is (being classified under the same category and ending up in the same subdirectory). Legends and pioneers deserve some special treatment, because their music is what most HVSC users search for. Keeping this in mind, its a bit tough to find an elegant way to untie this gordian knot; much easier to turn HVSC structure into a confusing mess, Im afraid.
Therefore, Akira, I find your remarks a little bit offensive. If you dont like HVSC the way it looks now, come up with some reasonable solution, which we could consider and perhaps accept. But dont attack it in harsh words just because something doesnt suit you, if you would be so kind - we cant please all people all the time.
Let me make it clear: Im writing all this on behalf of myself only - the above is NOT an official statement from the HVSC team; some of us have different points of view. But none of us enjoys comments like "What the fuck is VARIOUS about?", thats for sure.
19. Nov 2003 22:39
SB, I think Akiras remark was meant in a positive way - he wanted to express that the Various directory feels a little misrepresented wrt to the top-level composers, since there are a lot of good entries in Various but john doe doesnt want to hear them, so theyre simply stuffed into one little folder... however, if we were to make a VDSC, wouldnt it just be the same as the Various directory, except that now, we only have one click less to do? (Btw - on my HD, I always make a copy of Various and put it out of the c64music folder, meaning Im in the Various folder one click earlier. Its merely a mental move - the golden top-level from yonder days composers can have their little shrine, but Im more interested in the new stuff. And top-level composers who are still active go into that Various top-directory as well ;)
19. Nov 2003 23:14
I agree, getting rid of that Various subdirectory would be a turn for the better. Just stuff the A-F, G-N ect to the rootdir.
the quiet observer
20. Nov 2003 03:06
Hey SB, dont take it wrong. As Vip said, I meant that IMO the artists in the VARIOUS dir deserve as much, if not more recognition than the others. I truly dont believe in stuff like "legends", "heroes", etc., therefore I find the HVSCs directory structure a bit elitist, and discriminative. I did not say its bad, I love it, but the only idea I can come up with is sepparated archives, which might end up being wrong, but why the punter who wants to hear "Commando.sid" for hours on end, and is really, as Vip says, uninterested in travelling through the VARIOUS dir, be forced to download and uncompress all that? What I actually meant with "wtf is the deal with various" is that I did not understand why it was decided to organize it like that. I read above about Scortia. Never went into that specific dir of Various, at least not that I remmeber. What I found was an amazing composer, which might have took me ages to find, if it was not for the pointer in this page. I imagine that Joe Bloggs will never find about this guy, and others. I know its not easy to maintain such a mammoth of a collection, and Im sad that you took my comments teh wrong way, it was not meant to be offensive.
20. Nov 2003 04:03
Last 4 jury top 10picks to go!
20. Nov 2003 08:45
Re HVSC: maybe renaming VARIOUS to RECENT would better fit with the contents? The remixing scene is another matter, and some of the more active musicians seem to have taken on browsing the lesser known SIDs for finding songs with a potential to gain something on a remix (seldom or never a "perfect" SID will benefit from remaking if not a very different approach is taken).
20. Nov 2003 09:14
 Vip, plz, tell me: 1)why trying to calm down a person whos talkinfunny; 2)where in this board I fingered hally/vorc as "largemouth" whod declared my entry (which hell way your braind had taken in order to build the thought? :D)
20. Nov 2003 10:39
Hey people seems like everyone has jumpy mood all the time here. Is it the impatience before the results or what? ;-)  Anders: how about if the HVSC was ordered completely into the alphabet order and not in TOP and Various, that would help to give every musician equal chance ;-)
20. Nov 2003 10:53
How about two catalogues: [1983-1990] and [1991-2003], or maybe [_Various] or [_Recent] to make it on the top?
20. Nov 2003 11:25
 It would be a turn for the better for those interested in a current C64 scene activity. But not for the majority of the users.
When I first got my hands on HVSC, Ive noticed many _names_ unknown to me (Laxity and Galway for example - dont laugh, I had been only 13 years old when selling my C64) above VARIOUS. As they appeared next to Hubbard, Tel, Gray and other composers I remembered - I thought "hey, perhaps some other tunes I can recall are there". You can guess without much of an effort that I was simply overjoyed once I played Beastie Boys Intro Music by Laxity. "Shit, its THAT TUNE!!!". So I delved further, and it turned out that almost every tune I had listened to back in the days was above VARIOUS. Almost none was below it.
It takes some time for a nostalgic SID fan to appreciate all this wonderful music made nowadays, believe me. With HVSC sorted the way proposed by "quiet observer" (Steppe? :>) we wouldnt have given him that necessary amount of time. He would probably end up in confusion, being unable to find all those classic game- & crackintro-tunes from his childhood easily. Therefore Im all against sorting composers into A-F, G-L etc., regardless how famous and legendary they are and if they belong to the golden era of C64 or not. We have to come up with something else.
20. Nov 2003 11:29
There are wonderful search functions for HVSC. Anyone downloading it for the sake of listening to old game tunes that make them nostalgic can use that. We dont have to skew the directories for them as well. I say split all of it alphabetically.
20. Nov 2003 12:32
 Thats one of the better ideas. However, a bit hard to make it work in practice - how would you classify DRAX? Hes definitely one of the legends, but in his directory you can also find tunes dated 1999 or 2000.
 No search function can return a tune that you remember well, but cant recall the name nor the author. Current structure makes it a bit easier for an average nostalgic user IMHO.
20. Nov 2003 12:45
i splitted up the hvsc-directories to my likes. i never ever used that certain update.exe, because i dont want to miss the new additions that come with the updates.
20. Nov 2003 13:19
I don\t mind the VARIOUS folders. Maybe the split into years would be a good idea, with the placings based on the last year the composer was active - i.e. released something. This would keep the great composers of the 1980\s in a big dir of their own, the active/semi-active in the current folder, and the composers of the 2010\s (we can hope) in a new folder all to themselves...
20. Nov 2003 13:37
 Another reasonable idea. Seems well have plenty to choose from.
 It is a BIG mistake, not to use the Update Tool. It is responsible for introducing all credit (title, author, released) fixes, as well as INIT/PLAY addresses and SIDMODEL/CLOCK flag changes.
Personally, I always unpack an update to a separate folder, enjoy new additions, then run update.exe and enjoy a new, complete, upgraded collection. :)
20. Nov 2003 13:52
But what happens if a composer last seen in 1989 all of a sudden makes a 2003 release? She would have to move to a new place due to a new HVSC update. Actually, what bothers me most is that I know a game but not who composed, so I have to use a search (typically Windows search) to locate it. Too many directories in a flat hierarchy tends to be as bothersome to browse as a few deep ones. Im satisfied with how it looks right now, maybe with the exception that VARIOUS might sound like something the cat dragged in - cmp MISC, WHATEVER, OTHER, REST.
20. Nov 2003 13:55
(yes, I know all these "Various artists" compilations the record industry churns out, and IMHO they could call it "Assorted artists")
20. Nov 2003 13:58
: Linus ?kerlunds SID search can search based on notes if you are musical enough to hum and transcribe the intervals.
20. Nov 2003 13:59
Linus ?kesson .. sorry for misspelling and spamming.
20. Nov 2003 14:13
Dividing HVSC into 19xx periods? Mh! What a fool useless Berlusconian idea? You all are tourists of the SIDology! :D
20. Nov 2003 14:33
Interesting tool Anders. Thanx for the tip.
20. Nov 2003 14:43
Maybe it would be possible to convince Linus to run the indexing again, as HVSC 4.2 is more than two years old.
20. Nov 2003 15:03
Anders: Yes, Linus ?kerlunds sid search program can only search based on title, composer, init address, file size etc. :-)
20. Nov 2003 15:07
Indeed, we have discussed this topic HVSC internal several times now, the last time being only a few months ago. Basically SB has summed it all up nicely (even without straying away from the general opinion of the crew at all), but lets recite it once more:
1. Simply renaming VARIOUS to some other word seemed a little pointless to us. Anders is right, that the word itself doesnt sound too appealing, but is that really what would make you scene composers happy?
2. Sorting it all alphabetically, with recent and classical composers intermixed in the same directory hierarchy would simply offend 80% of our users. The user survey has shown that its indeed by far not only active scene listening to HVSC, but a vast crowd of average nostalgic Joes that dont give a damn about demos or music compos and the music released herein.
3. The most feasible solution in my eyes would be to put above /VARIOUS into a /CLASSICAL root directory, while renaming the /VARIOUS to /RECENT or /SCENE. But then we have a shitload of border cases (DRAX, LAXITY, Markus M?ller, etc. from above VARIOUS and quite a few from VARIOUS that could also be put into /CLASSICAL.
To make it short, we had an equal amount of opinions on each solution again and couldnt decide for a solution that fits all needs, which in turn meant that a change of the current organisation would just be something as imperfect as the current solution. Ill fire up another user survey again soon that will give some more detailed points to choose from, at least better than the last "Do you like the current HVSC structure?"
(Oh, SB, Im not the quiet observer, I never post anonymously.)
20. Nov 2003 16:27
Various may sound like the trashcan to some people, but thats not what we think. Even the members and ex. members of the HVSC-crew is under Various. I dont have any problem being under Various, really. After our user-survey we noticed that most people was happy about the way the HVSC is. Weve got a lot of suggestions how it could be, but no matter how well make it, someone will always complain.
20. Nov 2003 17:06
If it was possible to categorize all the VARIOUS people into different isms (like Galwayism, H?lsbeckism, bizarrism etc), it could be another way to group - but I know this is totally impossible and would be unfair to those willing to have a variated music style.</>
20. Nov 2003 17:32
 Sorry if I misinterpreted a cynical undertone in those preceding posts. I thought you were mad at hally/vorc for exposing your identity, while he hadnt done it. Yes, it is not expilitly mentioned, but thats what I implicitly understood. I apologise again if I was wrong. [Various]Well, like Anders, Im okay with the hierarchy, but Im not a fan of the wording Various. On one side, you have the masters of olde (let it be clear, I respect them deeply for what they did at that time) and on the other hand, you have Various. That indeed feels like leftovers, random stuff to me. So simply renaming Various into something a little more fitting *would* make me happy, yeah. On the other hand, were all smart people, ne? I think we can safely let HVSC keep their current hierarchy... customizing it to suit our personal needs can be done in a matter of minutes.
20. Nov 2003 17:37
But what is wrong on having C:/HVSID/CLASSICAL C:/HVSID/MODERN C:/HVSID/DOCS etc.? I find it quite reasonable. Every retro minded Joseph Carrot can find his stuff (the root dir musicians) in classic and the various dudes will be in modern (or even without current alphabetical splitting, just all modern musicians in one dir). I find having it diveded the way Steppe describes both appealing for retro dudes and also for scene dudes (me? ;-) and it can even make 1-2 more retro dudes to click into modern dir to dig up some of the "nineties" dudes he (maybe) remembers from somewhere.
20. Nov 2003 18:49
 I find this a good idea. Steppe, Peter - perhaps we should take it into consideration.
21. Nov 2003 14:39
 Vip, were happy for suggestions. Weve talked a lot about this issue, to see if there is a perfect solution that would suit everyone.
 What people seems to care about is that its called "Various". I dont like the idea Classical and Modern, that sound like music-styles, meaning Classical should be Bach, Mozart and Modern shold be Britney Spears. Also, even though Im "modern" I tend to do old-skool music. This also would mislead by putting them under Modern. My suggestion was actually to do alphabetical dirs like A, B, C... and mix classical and various. We didnt have a majority on that vote in the HVSC, and most important the user-survey didnt want us to change. So well stick to as it is for the moment, but please continue coming with suggestions.
21. Nov 2003 15:43
Of course, calling it Modern isnt the right wording either, but Various has got to go imo - a good substitute would be Scene since afaik, every composer inside the Various dir has participated in doing music for the Scene. It would do most of us good, since were kinda proud to be Sceners... Of course, there are sceners in the toplevel directory as well, but thats okay, since they get more screentime this way and besides, they comply to the criterium to be in the top-level directory. Thus its a good overlap, and no complaints there either. John Doe wont mind either, since all his nostalgic moments are still in the top-level, and now, theres this mysterious Scene thingy instead of that leftover Various folder. Maybe hed even be interested in finding out what Scene music is...? At least it sounds more intriguing than Various. Alternatively (and remember, this is just a suggestion), The thought had crossed my mind to make a split of the HVSC in two parts: the HVSC and SceneSC. HVSC would simply be the top-level directory, therefore containing the popular tunes that 80% of the users listen to exclusively, whereas SceneSC equals the current Various dir, plus the Vibrants and Maniacs of Noise from the toplevel dir - they have been part of the scene, and must therefore be included. With such a split, 80% of the audience will only have to download a very small file containing that which they want to hear, and they have the option to get the SceneSC as well to extend their collection to ALL the tunes. As a bonus, HVSC will only update very rarely (if Reyn decides to create a new tune, for example :), so the user doesnt have to spend a lot of time updating. This job would be for the fanatics (ie. us, the remaining 20%) updating SceneSC regularly, since thats where the action is going on these days. The overlap (Vibrants+Maniacs) is only minor, so its not that much of a problem. Oh well. In any case, the main vote is to change Various to Scene, which would me a very happy and proud Scener.
21. Nov 2003 15:44
What are the criteria to have a musician in the front row? To me it seems one should either have been a pioneer and/or have produced at least three musics for commercial games. As of HVSC 5.4, there are 146 musicians in the top directory, 143 in VARIOUS/A-F, 93 in G-L, 93 in M-R and 121 in S-Z. That is a total of 596 musicians, not counting those with a single song in GAMES or DEMOS.
21. Nov 2003 15:45
the Scene is nice too, btw. :)
21. Nov 2003 15:48
Oh yeah, GAMES and DEMOS. Logically, in my suggested split, GAMES should stay in HVSC and DEMOS goes to SceneSC.
21. Nov 2003 15:55
: Not sure.. Georg Feils "Synth Sample" would be lost for those not downloading the scene extention, and somehow I think that demo was awfully important for the development of the SID music... or?
21. Nov 2003 16:06
Psst Anders... I think most sceners will download the split HVSC anyway, so its not that much of a problem ;)
21. Nov 2003 16:19
 Oh we still find plenty to fill the root with, check the Christmas update the 19th of December... ;)
 Its very well explained in the docs of HVSC.
 Dont agree that DEMOS should be under Scene.
I agree that renaming Scene would be a more appealing name, but the structure would be exactly the same otherwise. It would require a modification of the update program on all plattforms, and the players. However not all those under Various are sceners anyway, example: Stefan Siegert, Ward Selles. I suggest we write some examples of different ways to do it in our next user-survey. (This might be a bit off-topic for the SID Compo thread)
21. Nov 2003 16:23
why making it all too complicated? you can?t make satisfying splits like oldschool/various, modern/classical and so on as there are always composers walking on both sides (laxity, jch, reyn ouwehand etc.). let the oldschoolers see what happened in modern times, in our scene. sid music was good, sid music IS good. don?t classify - bring ?em together!
21. Nov 2003 16:25
Thanks for the suggestions and the constructive feedback, folks, MUCH appreciated! Right after having cleaned up those Megastyle SIDs (you probably noticed theres still a lot missing from HVSC) Ill bring up the topic again in our mailing list.
21. Nov 2003 16:44
Of course the name change doesnt alter the structure. It does alter the scene composers self-esteem. Id be proud to be part of a Scene directory - it just doesnt sound nearly as good to be part of the <*Various*> *tries not to spit* directory. As for cases such as Stefan Siegert and Ward Selles.. cant they be the exceptions that prove the rule? Or - would it destroy the HVSCs integrity to put them into top-level? I mean, there are 450 composers in >=Various=< - and, apparently, only a handful of non-scene composers in *+=Various=+*. Adding that handful to the 146 in top-level wont change the HVSC dramatically, and the renaming of /Saviour/ to Scene would then be truthful. Top-level as well, since it will contain all main and fullfledged games composers.
21. Nov 2003 16:49
 But those interested in that new HVSC wouldnt have a chance to get curious and delve into /VARIOUS with one mouseclick. Which, speaking from my experience, is quite a frequent case.
And Peter is damn right - just wait for the Christmas update to see how many tunes from the root dir weve been missing out on. :)
21. Nov 2003 18:25
Then let them delve into /Scene or /the Scene with one mouseclick. :)
21. Nov 2003 18:26
HAH! Seems like  is mine as well :)
21. Nov 2003 23:46
Ok, I found my answer in Q25 in the FAQ (although it has a bug - it ignores GAMES and DEMOS and only speaks about / and VARIOUS).
21. Nov 2003 23:50
Chapter 2 in the accompaning text document is however perfectly clear on the matter and the FAQ question seems to be a subset of the text from that chapter.
22. Nov 2003 00:42
vip, i get the feeling youre doing that number-game on purpose. =)
22. Nov 2003 01:55
Nope, its all coincidence. Weird coincidence, but still. It seems that 3x37 and I are good friends... :)
22. Nov 2003 17:58
Anyway... Me wants RESULTS! ;) [pressing CreaMD :]
22. Nov 2003 18:57
One last jury to top ten to go. they I set the deadline for voting (probly tuesday, wednesday? and tramtadada.. you know what ;-)
22. Nov 2003 19:12
ich kannst nicht gewarten until mayne resultat gestarted!
le cien pour la cientieme
22. Nov 2003 21:37
 me too! I just want to know if which tune I think will win, will win. :) And to finally see all composer names beside their respective track - even with the little guessing compo slip up, I still have no real idea who composed what... ;) (I actually didnt read more than 1 or 2 names when I noticed them anyway)
22. Nov 2003 21:48
sad cold night/
comporesults not up yet/
supreme haiku master
22. Nov 2003 22:05
btw, when is the voting deadline??
23. Nov 2003 03:01
CJ: CreaMD wrote above: " then I set the deadline for voting (probly tuesday, wednesday? and tramtadada.. you know what ;-) "
23. Nov 2003 04:08
Nice competition.. :)
23. Nov 2003 12:14
Nice tune, Glenn! ;-)
23. Nov 2003 17:02
Hehe, its not hard to find out which tune grg made ;)
23. Nov 2003 22:14
lordNiko(ti)n: It also isnt very hard to find out what tune Dane made :)
23. Nov 2003 22:23
Actually there was one person who missed and guessed that he has composed different tune. ;-)
24. Nov 2003 08:58
: Who was that - Goldfish of Teflon Brain?
24. Nov 2003 10:35
Anders - everyone makes mistakes.
24. Nov 2003 11:42
: Hehehe... good one! :D
By the way, Vip:  is coming up, come on, do the satanic thingy again! ;-)
24. Nov 2003 12:05
Im fond of 911. You should all know that by now. Yes, you too, Glenn! :)
24. Nov 2003 12:06
Or was it 912? Cant really remember...
24. Nov 2003 13:18
Mistakes yes, but not recognizing your own song (as I interpreted CreaMDs message - or was it not recognizing Danes song which was hilarious?) ought to be quite spectacular.
24. Nov 2003 13:21
(btw, goldfish are said to have a much longer and more permanent memory than the 10-30 seconds previously claimed - there was recent scientific news on that subject)
24. Nov 2003 14:24
I understood that someone wasnt able to recognize Danes tune correctly. Which is quite hilarious indeed, if you are an active scener, but if you are not...
24. Nov 2003 14:54
Im patiently awaiting , actually >:). If we get that far, that is.
24. Nov 2003 14:56
And... huh? Did Dane enter the competition? *looks around* Where, for the love of humanity, WHERE?
24. Nov 2003 15:10
Ok, maybe I misinterpreted CreaMD then. But you have to admit if from a collection of 40 songs, you are unable to pick your own, it would be an interesting case, at least as long all songs are distinct. Recognizing your Comic Bakery out of 21 covers might be another matter though.
24. Nov 2003 16:05
I wasnt aware that Anders Carlsson and active sceners find my tune hilarious. ;P
24. Nov 2003 16:48
I thought that active sceners are hilarious and Anders Carlsson recognizes them. :o
24. Nov 2003 19:50
Hey Vip! So youre not only the devil , but also an angel ! Didnt know that there are hermaphrodites in the c64-Scene! *giggle*
24. Nov 2003 20:11
If you want I can change that easily, it just needs to delete on post anywhere ;-)
24. Nov 2003 22:13
Really CreaMD? So you have influence on Vips destiny, dont you? :P What are you, a god? Whatever, lets spread some paranoia : The 23rd post was written by Smalltown Boy (=BS?) at the time "09. Oct 2003 22:28". Now take 2003, take out the "00", and you have "23". Now take the rest, i.e. 09 Oct 22:28 and calculate the sum of the digits (without Oct.) and you have "23" ! So, dear Smalltown Boy, what are your plans with us, some harmless sceners? You are an illuminati, arent you?! No wonder, that Vip is arguing with you all the time, because he is a hermaphrodite between an angel and a demon and he wants to rescue us all! Damned, I should better watch TV NOW, else Ill have to go to the hospitl again...
24. Nov 2003 22:14
BTW, I am looking forward for the results of this compo. :P
24. Nov 2003 22:36
Arman - youve caught me with my pants down. I am an illuminati, and the author of "Illumination" probably is as well.
24. Nov 2003 22:49
, So... you finally figured it out, didntcha? ;) Just one little mistake - male angels float around, too, so theres no need for me to interlace between two way too different pictures... =P
25. Nov 2003 00:14
Vip, whoo... Thank god, you are saying that. I was afraid you will make a spring on Smalltown Boy since he said his pants are down! >:D
25. Nov 2003 01:13
Oh please do, despite what you said :)
They are down indeed
25. Nov 2003 01:31
I have made a spring before :P
25. Nov 2003 02:48
[927, 928] *whistles* "Here, AMJ!" *whistles some more* "Look over there, boy! GO GETEM!"
25. Nov 2003 08:27
i want results...now!!!!
25. Nov 2003 08:34
 Uh...now or tomorrow morning?
25. Nov 2003 09:12
i want results...now!!!!
25. Nov 2003 10:07
I want an elephant...
a life in hell
25. Nov 2003 10:19
i want results...now!!!!
25. Nov 2003 10:20
tripple posting from hell.....strange :-)
25. Nov 2003 11:02
Tripple posting at least sounds urgent ;-)
25. Nov 2003 11:23
Triplespeed music sounds better, though.
25. Nov 2003 11:50
Triple elephants on speed? *locks the door and shuts the windows*
25. Nov 2003 12:03
25. Nov 2003 12:44
25. Nov 2003 15:57
locking the door? but theyre personable pachyderms!
a life in hell
25. Nov 2003 17:24
Ill join the popular voice. i want results...now!!!!i want results...now!!!!i want results...now!!!!i want results...now!!!!i want results...now!!!! :D
25. Nov 2003 17:48
Whats with you people? Voting phase commences today 23:59, and the results will be, most probably, available tomorrow, stop whining.
I want Vip
25. Nov 2003 17:56
Yeah, stop whining! :)
25. Nov 2003 18:08
Bah.. tommorow? Hmmm.. well.. maybe.. maybe.. but dont count on it. Definitely one thing will happen for sure. This page will go offlight for a while and then get back stuffed with a lot of interesting behind-the-scenes & making-of info ;-)
25. Nov 2003 18:19
Making-of info!!! Making-of info!!! NOW!!! :D
25. Nov 2003 18:28
i?m sorry CreaMD if i started a new trend in the forum...i?m sorry!!! i?m sorry!!! i?m sorry!!!
25. Nov 2003 22:28
Hmmmm, an invisible sign says that the results will be delayed for a(n) (yet) unknown reason :P
25. Nov 2003 22:59
25. Nov 2003 23:57
Guys, be patient, okay? Compo results are nothing to be anxious about.
Vip, who wants his cool Xmas remix back in his head. Now!
26. Nov 2003 02:30
Yeah, be cool and act like the results were really nothing to care about ;)
SB, who still wants Vip, but is patient
26. Nov 2003 09:14
i?m not anxious. i just want to know if i am at the last place or not :-)
26. Nov 2003 10:41
Theyre playing the Elephant song...
26. Nov 2003 13:03
I really dont care about it, actually, because I compose what I like, not to fit with the most popular tastes. In the past, I had my tunes going from 1st to last place... Voting can be so weird - anyones tune can go any way so really, theres no anxiety or pressure or whatever.
26. Nov 2003 13:09
To be honest, I care about it, because I dont make music solely for myself. I make it for the audience, and I consider this quite important if people like it or not. If I appreciate a tune I made, and then it turns out that the audience also enjoys it - what could possibly be more satisfying?
26. Nov 2003 13:20
Personally, Ive had my share of gratification. Some people like what I do, others dont. If I hadnt been doing this for myself, I would have given it up ages ago.
26. Nov 2003 13:41
I like sid tunes that have some form of melody or a "hook" of some sort. I try to make tunes like that. I am so tired of all "jazz" tunes with a sidsolo which often are out of tune, no melody just very very advanced technically. I hope people think like me beacause then my song is not last :-)
26. Nov 2003 13:41
Philosophy manifest for a SIDcomposers life, Dane, uh? ;)
26. Nov 2003 13:44
 I say exactly the same, K, neverthless I love Danes musics.
26. Nov 2003 13:51
Dane makes good sid tunes beacause he mixes these two types of "genres" like for example the "loretta" song. Very advanced BUT with a hook and melody. There are not many composers which can make this work, Dane is one of them.
26. Nov 2003 13:53
One of those who can i should say....i?m crap in english language
26. Nov 2003 13:56
Hmmmm... Most SC3 entries containing out of tune solos ARENT advanced technically. The most sophisticated (soundwise) entries, "MUmaid", "Downstairs Funk" and "Floatee" are quite melodic in fact...
26. Nov 2003 13:57
k, the level of catchiness was sadly kept pretty low this time.
26. Nov 2003 13:58
K - if Im guessing your name right, you wont be last for sure, I know at least 1 jury member who gave you 1st place ;)
26. Nov 2003 14:01
12, perhaps you werent paying enough attention. I can hum at least 15 entries along without making a slightest mistake. And no, I havent been spending whole days listening.
26. Nov 2003 14:08
B, i can only hum along 4 tunes. then again my shorttime memory needs some more training.
but maybe its just 4 catchy tunes for me and 15 for you.
26. Nov 2003 14:08
 if that is true then....wow :-)
26. Nov 2003 14:43
 I suppose so. Let me guess, youre not very fond of C64 music made nowadays in general.
26. Nov 2003 15:13
 Wrong guess. That Wouldnt earn You the slightest point in the guessing compo. ;-)
26. Nov 2003 15:18
 Your statement about lack of catchiness leaves me puzzled, then...
 What country are you from, K (Norway, Turkey)? Tell me and Ill tell you if I was right.
Few more posts and Vip will be able to take 
26. Nov 2003 15:40
Hes entitled to his opinion - if you would ask anyone here about how many tunes they found catchy, youd get widely varying sounds. Does that mean hes not fond of current c64 nusic? Maybe, but it doesnt have to.
[958,963]Being one of those "jazz" tune composers in general, I dont see too many problems with having no hook or melody. "jazz", or at least the style I practice, is about having a little beat, a few chords, perhaps a base of sorts and then just let rip. PLay on the moment, let your imagination soar, go wild. I love that. Of course, I do some pre-planned melody/hook and/or techno stuff too, but that doesnt mean the freestyle approach is without merit. In fact, I personally think its a lot cooler than premeditated stuff. Then again, thats just me, and your vision, thats just you. What Im trying to say is: we couldnt possibly rate styles - theyre all equivalent.
26. Nov 2003 15:51
 Vip, of course he is entitled, and so am I. Im really deep into current sidmusic scene and there werent a compo with such a high number of catchy entries, comparable to SC3, for a long time. Thats how I see it. Take Mekka 2002 for example, and youll be stunned with how many melodic hooks are there in SC3 contributions.
26 to go
26. Nov 2003 15:56
I wonder if the database will crash if we reach 4 digit numbers?
26. Nov 2003 15:56
Hm, Id really like to know... ;-)
26. Nov 2003 15:59
maybe were mixing up the meaning of either something beeing catchy and the other thing beeing qualitative?
when i said catchy, i meant to say that it got me by the first time i listened to it, that i immidiately felt like listening to it more than an hour.
no doubt that the quality of this years entries is higher than the ones from last year.
26. Nov 2003 16:01
Does anyone know of a site/file that explains making instruments in extreme detail?
26. Nov 2003 16:05
 i?m from sweden...
26. Nov 2003 16:09
 The making of instruments are very dependent on the software you are using BUT if you just want to know more about the sid then the c64 manual is a good start.
26. Nov 2003 16:34
 Sweden? *scratches head* Then I was wrong, sorry... I thought that K stands for Kent :(
26. Nov 2003 16:36
 It does :-) Kent is a very common name in sweden :-)
26. Nov 2003 16:42
Yes, take the time to learn a little about sample waveforms, and how they look on particular instruments. then try to recreate them using the waveforms at your disposal on the c64. I believe Jeff made a good music tutorial in one of the disk mags (dont remember the name). Theres also a complex course by X-ample in the Magic Disk series, which I followed and really enjoyed, although by the end you do get modeled according to the vision of Thomas Detert :). Another way is to use Syndroms tool and analyze the instruments in some tunes you like. Or analyze the worktunes in JCHs pack. However, dont copy them or your tune will sound very much like that of the composer. Like Metal once to me said in an interview I did with him years ago: "Make your own instruments! If you do that, your tunes will sound a lot better (because the instruments are tuned to eachother), and youll be able to make your music stand out of the crowd. Also, dont release your first worktunes. They usually sound horrible and youll feel bad later on when theyre standing inbetween the tunes that really are *you*". I tend to agree with Torben, not because I adore his tunes, but because I understand now. The only thing is... when do you know that the tunes you make are *you*. If you just *know* it, then my tunes are not me, because I dont know if they are. A feeling that its going in the right direction, but thats it... besides, when you are *there*, it will have ended the journey leading up to that point. Im not sure I wish the journey to end... :)
26. Nov 2003 16:45
 I give up. Ill put it this way: if "The End" is yours, youve got 1st place from at least one of the jurors.
26. Nov 2003 16:48
 "Also, don?t release your first worktunes. They usually sound horrible and you?ll feel bad later" - yeah, words of wisdom!
26. Nov 2003 16:53
 hehe, That is my song :-) I must thank that juror personally someday then :-) btw i really like your levellers cover....
26. Nov 2003 16:56
btw, whats the magic disk issue where i can find the x-ample course? i should take a look at this because i was always fascinated of thomas deterts tunes :)
26. Nov 2003 17:10
 Go ahead: email@example.com :)
I liked your tune, too, but you didnt make it into my top ten this time (my expectations were very high because of "Hollow", perhaps that explains why). Yet still 7 points from me.
26. Nov 2003 17:18
 Thanks! Glad you like "Hollow" It is my favourite of my own songs also...but be prepared..new songs are in the making, as soon i figure out JCH.
26. Nov 2003 17:38
 Actually, the course spans over several issues (dont know the exact year anymore, but I think it was 1991 or 1992), including the official X-Ample editor :). I made lotsa tunes in that editor, but unfortunately, there was no packer included, so I could never make an executable out of them. After fiddling around with it, I do know that Thomas Deterts particular style defined the editor and vice versa. The sounds you could create, their interaction and structure simply led you to the Detert style. The last time I felt that sort of restriction was in the horrible RoMuzak, an editor that hopefully NOONE uses anymore.
Kenho, good luck. It shouldnt be too hard though if youre used to a music tracker.
Vip, who remembers his Xmas tune and will try to compose it tonight
26. Nov 2003 17:51
Another great tool for learning how to make instruments is ransid (http://ffd2.com somewhere ;), which lets you load in a music, and read the parameters that its writing to the sid. Funny thing was, when I first started using TFX, I was pissed off because it was enough not like other players that I had to make my own instruments from scratch rather than just modifying other peoples percussions like I had before. Then I managed to use ransid to copy other peoples drums, and ended up finding that the later versions of my own ones fit the other instruemnts in my song far better. go figure. I guess the moral is, working it out yourself is worth it because it gives you a style, but its fucking painful if you dont really understand this shit (like me :-p)
a life in hell
26. Nov 2003 18:02
"Working it out yourself is worth it because it gives you a style, but it?s fucking painful if you don?t really understand this shit (like me :-p)" This should be carved in stone!!! Thank you, ALIH! (And its even more painful to try to do it in TFX - that editors so bloody universal that to me it offers just too many possibilities to take one in particular :-C)
26. Nov 2003 18:05
I dont really understand the technical shit either, Alih, just the music. Theres a great deal of searching, working and tweaking involved, but in the end its worth it, I feel. It gives you the freedom to cast off the conventions and go in the direction you want, and thats really worth going for. That your own instruments work better than the copied ones is testament to this :).
Vip, who lost the tune again :/
26. Nov 2003 18:08
Wotnau which tunes did you like drop me an e-mail if you have some time?
26. Nov 2003 18:32
Vip, forget about that Xmas remix and stay tuned.
5 to go
26. Nov 2003 18:33
Heh.. "Six" more to go to 1000...
26. Nov 2003 18:34
Oh ouch. Pre-empted
26. Nov 2003 18:40
for some reason i get a new years eve feeling right now
26. Nov 2003 18:50
...and 999 goes to...
26. Nov 2003 18:51
im not much of a technical guy either, in fact i only understand a wee bit of whats actually going on inside my c64s. as for the musick and the way the instruments are build up, its alot about tweaking and experimenting.
26. Nov 2003 18:51
999... it\s just around the corner.... 8D ... I\m with you on this... freestyle/improvisation rules... :P
26. Nov 2003 18:52
ooops 999 got snapped up quick! :) I got *1000*, tho! :)
26. Nov 2003 19:05
Hey "k" man... so tired of all "jazz" tunes with a sidsolo which often are out of tune?? If your mind is not ready for a lets say Bbmaj7/F - Bb5/F - C5 - AM7 Maybe you should clear your mind and cut down drinking during working days? :D
26. Nov 2003 19:12
Damn, I wanted to write the 1000th post :P
26. Nov 2003 19:15
Damn, I wanted to write the 1000th post :P
26. Nov 2003 19:15
999 and hzalep is both written upsidedown. ph34r.
el hijo del santo
26. Nov 2003 19:20
Missed it...! *sigh* Tja, I guess Ill remain stuck in interlace-mode, then. Oh well, luckily a black/white creature is gloomy enough as is... you never know what mood its in!
26. Nov 2003 19:21
I do not like jazz music, plain and simple. Ok i admit that it is probably more difficult to make a tune like that but...what should i say, tastes differ...
26. Nov 2003 19:23
 Ye know k3? Blessed be the gods! Then you speak my language - jazz-wise, we already seem to be in accord ;) Cool!
26. Nov 2003 19:24
46 valid audience votesheets + abou 20 from musicians. Ive received 42 jury votes.Currently Im trying to please my customers, when I get some time and rest Ill try to please you with the results. Probably sometimes around tommorow midnight. Stay tuned.
26. Nov 2003 19:25
Psyah, then you dont know what youre missing... Just have a listen at the soundtrack from Live Evil/Mandula (pc demo, download, extract the .mp3). That things is just BLISS...
26. Nov 2003 19:34
 Ok, i will listen to that. I might have been too harsh when i said i do not like jazz. jazz music comes in a lot of flavours and some are good but most is bad. I like John Zorn (probably misspelled) for example :-)
26. Nov 2003 19:38
CreaMD, 42 jury votes? Who didnt vote? lets prod him :D
26. Nov 2003 19:41
 i have listened now to Carlos and Norfair and as i said, technicly very advanced but i do not like it. The demo was good though, very nice graphics :-)
26. Nov 2003 19:46
 Or her... ;)
26. Nov 2003 19:54
 "jazz music comes in a lot of flavours and some are good but most is bad." - Please add "in my very humble opinion, I think that " before this sentence and end with "...but I could be totally wrong, of course.". Its VERY dangerous if you dont, as it will result in rabid jazz fans (ie. me, amongst other) to scald and destroy you.
26. Nov 2003 20:16
Ofcourse it is my opinions, I do not force anyone to have my music taste. This always happens when i talk with people that likes jazz, they get angry. Why, i do not know. "but I could be totally wrong, of course." why should i be wrong in my music taste? i have always listened to music, plays music in different bands but almost never liked jazz music. Is that wrong? And why should people destroy me beacause i do not like jazz? Strange....
26. Nov 2003 20:18
What exactly is your vision of jazz? A music that is sophisticated harmonically and melodically, full of syncopated beats, improvisation, pulse, warmth and elegance? Or Japanese people with laptops, teamed up with long-haired, bearded men, producing something which can be described as electronic noise metal?
26. Nov 2003 20:24
*points at the word rabid* Its okay to have your opinion on music, but dont just say most of jazz is bad. And my vision is freestyle, baby... :)
26. Nov 2003 20:30
Jazz is good, sophisticated, organic music style, which should be played on real instruments. SID isnt good for that. IMHO.
26. Nov 2003 20:36
One could say that about all music styles. Should be played on real instruments, SID isnt good enoug etcetc...
26. Nov 2003 20:39
-SB, I didnt want to hint on that, just for the guesscompo participants ;)
26. Nov 2003 20:40
SID is an instrument of sorts... good in some areas, bad in others...
26. Nov 2003 20:46
of course, the c64 is a sort chip-synth and as such you have a number of voices that can be programmed with synth instruments. But to say that these instruments are not capable of being used in a certain genre is like saying that a KORG T-2 cant be used beyond a few selected styles, ie. pointless.
26. Nov 2003 20:46
 "Japanese people with laptops, teamed up with long-haired, bearded men, producing something which can be described as electronic noise metal?" Do you refer to Naked City? or Masonna? or Merzbow? I see jazz music as a way for very advanced musicians to explore and advance in their music making. This kind of music (in my humble.bla,bla) tends to be very boring to listen to. For me, when music gets so advanced i don?t like it. Now i think i have made my point and i will not argue anymore about this. I?m sorry for having my own music taste and if i have offended someone i apologize for that also.
26. Nov 2003 20:46
Hmm, after seeing your opinions here, I wonder if a Trance-Tune had any chance in this compo...
26. Nov 2003 20:47
Could also be A-Man, at least they called me this way in the school
26. Nov 2003 20:49
Well how many different types of music you can play with trumpet? Its also instrument which is good in some things, not-so-good in othters :)
26. Nov 2003 20:56
 I can listen to trance. I?m sure a certain trance tune in this very compo was in my top ten :-)
26. Nov 2003 21:22
Thats the point. An instrument can be used for ANY style.
26. Nov 2003 21:22
Hey, theres actually a wide spectrum of what you can do with a trumpet - ranging from jazz over military music over to uptempo serbian folkmusic. Try to listen to some Miles Davis and some Boban Markovic, and youll see what I mean. And jazz kicks. And it fits for the C-64 aswell - just listen to Metals wonderful adaptation of "Groovin High" - and thats far from the limit of what you could do in a jazzy style on the C-64.
26. Nov 2003 21:39
...But you cant use trumpet in _that_ many musics generally :) Certainly its an expressive instrument, but the tone, range, etc, are limited. Same goes for SID imho.
26. Nov 2003 22:59
And why couldnt you use the trumpet in any style? Afaik, you perfectly can. You just have to be creative enough. Its all so relative, folks...
26. Nov 2003 23:09
Jazz music often consists of one or a few themes and then written (!) or improvised solos inbetween those themes - sometimes based upon the theme, sometimes only restricted by chord structure, sometimes not even that. If one wrote a SID Jazz Player which improvises upon a few basic phrases, it might be successful but since it requires a random element, the song would sound different each time you hear it.
A good theme is for me something that works in many styles and tempos - if the same theme can reappear throughout the music without being bound to be a repeat of previously played, Ill grade it slightly higher than just a nice chorus.
26. Nov 2003 23:11
The range of the trumpet is at least 40 feet (or something) if you have a good left arm (says the saxophonist :-).
26. Nov 2003 23:34
and if the winds are right good old 6581 flies like a hawk. does it make it a better instrument now?:)
26. Nov 2003 23:54
is there any rule behind jazz and moreover its appropriate melodies after all?
27. Nov 2003 08:46
Was that question really serious?
27. Nov 2003 10:04
Please your real nicks, if you want Ill add cookie storing of the last name inserted so you will not have to write it all the time (Ill do it now immediately anyway)...
27. Nov 2003 10:09
 That would be great!
27. Nov 2003 10:46
But ST20031127.zip actually _is_ that guys real nick... ;)
27. Nov 2003 11:02
Hehe, sorry for the confusion. I thought its somehow artsy to mutilate the nick as much as possible... ;-)
27. Nov 2003 11:09
Okay so you can use tiny little checkbox to store your Name and Contact data to cookie so you wont have to type it in again.
27. Nov 2003 11:10
Maybe Ill make it checked on default. Yeah Ill do.
27. Nov 2003 11:12
CreamD, I like the changeable nick. Allows to adapt my nick to whichever mood Im in. But if you want us to be good people with neverchanging nicks, no problem. In the latter case it will save me the gutwrenching work of having to write, over and over again,
27. Nov 2003 11:16
27. Nov 2003 11:24
Vip you can change your nicks if you want but I would like to be able (and Im sure not only me) to know who is writing.
27. Nov 2003 11:38
IMO. It is far more harder to think of a really catchy and melodic themes than to advance the tune and improvise alot. Dont you think?
27. Nov 2003 11:42
is everybody done beeing sorry for using different nicks, causing confusion and eventually making people think youre someone else? =)
27. Nov 2003 11:48
 Yes. And the hardest thing of them all is to come up with something catchy and melodic, but sophisticated and advanced at the same time. Thats one of the reasons for listening to jazz: there are hundreds of jazz themes fitting the above description.
27. Nov 2003 11:58
and as for the jazz question - ST20031127.zip, im serious when i say that i dont know anything about jazz.
all i know is that its beeing played in smokey bars and that the guy whos doing the bass does always look funny while he shakes his head.
27. Nov 2003 12:30
So, you know basically everything you should know.
27. Nov 2003 12:36
CreamD, cool! SB, Cyberzound is dead and buried by Jeff - we founded ViruZ instead. Stanley, no it isnt. Its just as hard, if not harder. Just like with improvized rapping, you have to think forward, and do that very fast - the next 10 seconds of your improvized tune should be running in your head while youre playing the previous 10 seconds. To create something improvized which still is cool to listen to requires a lot of practice, but its worth it, since youre not bound to anything but the limits of your imagination. I like that. I like that a lot. No music partitions, no preordained lyrics, notes and flavors, just you and your imagination. Unfortunately, this is very hard to recreate on a c64... one can try to tape and rebuild an improv session, though. Dalezy, thats how I imagine it when Im playing :). Ive got this very cool John Coltrane poster which is usually more than enough to get me in the mood for sax. Naive, perhaps, but all one needs to be creative. (mental note: better keep quiet about those Candy Dulfer posters which get me in the m-- ohh NO! o.O ;)
27. Nov 2003 12:48
sb, so, when im beatboxing and humming under the shower, does that fall in the big jazz-drawer as well?
27. Nov 2003 13:04
Disagree. I like to improvise myself. Still, truly catchy melodic tune appears to me more valuable and harder to compose than the most sophisticated improvisation.
27. Nov 2003 13:24
Doesnt most catchy tunes come from improvision where you get "stuck" into a theme and later perfect it? To compose on command (note by note?) seldom works for me at least. Otherwise, one of the typical elements for jazz is triplet quavers and syncopated rhythms, although syncopation is used in many other musical styles, sometimes including "classical" music
27. Nov 2003 13:55
Wheres the results, hurry up man!
27. Nov 2003 13:55
 True. Some valuable ideas come to mind while improvising. Same goes for freestyling in hip-hop - most original and inventive phrases are often created during freestyle sessions.
27. Nov 2003 14:07
No, its not harder to compose, since you can re-listen to your tune indefinately. You can tinker and slaver around until the tune suits your need. When improvizing, you have only ONE shot. And trust me, keeping playing good, varied stuff for some extended period of time is everything except easy. In the first phases, youll sound extremely lame, even, because you didnt consider how your stream of consciousness evolves over time, or the piano player changes chords and you come out of the blue ("dang, I thought the change wasnt until three more measures!"), sound offkey and horrible. Thats a terrible, awkward moment which should only happen once in your life (unfortunately, it keeps happening if you dont stay focused or get lazy). Also, dont forget, while youre building your tune inside your head, you still need to translate it to your instrument - that adds to the difficulty, as well as judging the result of your tune as you move on to the next parts. Freestyle jazz is a live artform which shouldnt be underestimated. The emphasis is not so much on the produced music (which has a certain standard, but is different everytime and may have its stronger or weaker days) but rather on the performance itself. And because its so live, playing makes you feel alive. Its the musicians high, so to speak. Tinkering on a tune to get the most earwurmy result possible has its merits too, but somehow, after some live improvs, it feels a little standard to me.
27. Nov 2003 14:10
*ahem* well, live improvs in my playing room at home with a small audience or just for myself, that is... Im not the Next Big Thing sax-wise ;)
27. Nov 2003 14:28
In my opinion, the hardest thing is to improvise something which sounds like it was carefully crafted and prepared before, while in fact it wasnt. Expressing yourself is nice, but if it aint communicative, you may as well cease to play/rhyme at all (unless youre doing it solely for yourself - we were discussing it over before...)
27. Nov 2003 14:41
By the way, I will miss all those discussions when the compo is over and its forum gets closed *snif*
27. Nov 2003 15:08
Lets all get downvoted lots then, and well have plenty of room in the CSDB forums to discuss? :)
27. Nov 2003 15:12
Of course you can play it over and over, but if you have no idea in your head (does humming count as improvising?) to begin with, composing note by note from scratch will be quite difficult. Im not sure why anybody would like to do that, except being certain they stay as far as possible from improvising. Maybe Im exaggerating somewhat, but as long as the SID cant select its own patterns to improvise upon, the songs consisting of "improvisions" actually are written solos which never repeat and thus dont count as choruses.
Lets recapitulate:  K prefers hook over jazz without melody,  SB ponders what jazz is and  me defends the rights to improvise and later try to reason that it will potentially lead to a catchy melody with a hook.
27. Nov 2003 15:32
 "me defends the rights to improvise and later try to reason that it will potentially lead to a catchy melody with a hook." That is the usual way i make music. First the base notes, then improvised notes, usually with my guitar or in the tracker. This leads often to a good base which i can build my song on.
I think it would be interresting to know how all of you build up a song?
27. Nov 2003 15:46
"Expressing yourself is nice, but if it ain?t communicative, you may as well cease to play/rhyme at all" - lol! I somehow feel that conventional artists were saying that to Picasso or van Gogh as well. I mean, he was painting for himself, and by golly, his works were far from communicative at the time. He might as well cease to paint at all! And van Goghs case was even worse - he barely sold anything at all, his works were simply being stocked by his brother. Seriously though people, you think that while improvising, nothing structural, chaotic, dramatic, fun, quality or cool can come out of it? As in graphical art, there is freedom of expression... whether or not it fits to conventional taste, is irrelevant. The thing is, I think, were doing this to express ourselves. So I follow Anders, but take an extra step by saying that improvising can be a catchy artform by itself (although it *is* a performance art, I admit), which in no sense has to feel inferior to more traditionally crafted music.
27. Nov 2003 15:46
Theres no formula for me. I have something that sounds promising (could be a melody, chords sequence, bassline, even a nice instruments set) and then it just develops into a full length tune. Each time different way.
27. Nov 2003 15:47
Good question, Kenho! I normally start with a decent enough bassline first, but I try to NOT do it that way every once in a while. Starting out building a chord structure can be a lot more fun, but I find it leads to rather bland basslines. Thats my personal experience.
A couple of my tunes were first composed at the piano - and at this point I had better add I am NOT a qualified pianist in any way. And a very few select tunes were first made in PC trackers, which gave me better overview on chords and harmonies.
It would be very fun to do sort of a round robin tune, where a worktune is passed around and new patterns and melodies are added by different musicians.
27. Nov 2003 15:58
"It would be very fun to do sort of a round robin tune, where a worktune is passed around and new patterns and melodies are added by different musicians"
Yeah, that is a fun idea, but it might be difficult especially if it is a c64 song beacause we would argue for about 10 years first in which software the tune should be made in :-) Seriously, it IS a fun idea :-)
27. Nov 2003 16:01
Btw.. I do not know if i should love or hate the "DataDataDataData" song in the compo. It is compleatly different from all c64 songs i have heard.
27. Nov 2003 16:11
 Im not speaking of conventional taste (which seems to be the most appalling phrase to you). There isnt anything like a conventional taste. Free jazz has different conventions and audience, and damned awful dixie too, etc. Im speaking about whether your improvised parts have some merit for the people listening, or for you only, as you feel free and creative while playing. For me, that matters. If I express myself, and then no one is moved by my expression, it may be reasonable to control myself tighter next time. I mean... Im not an artist. Im sort of an entertainer. Whats most important for me is to do my thing the best I can, and the second important thing is to impress people. If they stay indifferent - it means to me that Ive done something wrong. Whats the point in expressing yourself if no one understands? It becomes a form of autotherapy, then. Chances that youre the next Van Gogh are rather thin.
But, as I said: Im not an artist. I judge from my experience, and I always wanted people to LISTEN. Not to turn their backs on me, saying "this doesnt make sense". If they dont listen, you cant communicate, and if you cant communicate, your message gets ignored. And this is definitely something I would like to avoid by all means.
27. Nov 2003 16:14
Heh, very true Kenho ;D It really would be fun though!
27. Nov 2003 16:15
 Have you ever heard a C64 song consisting of 5 minute long triangle wave, playing constant A#7 note? Me neither.
27. Nov 2003 16:18
People are always arguing about how difficult the JCH-editor is. A round robin tune could be an excellent way for people to figure out how it works. Hang on for my JCH-pack to be released in the near future, where I will hopefully include sufficient documentation for the round robin idea to come true!
27. Nov 2003 16:21
*anecdote mode: on* True story: a few years back, at a music party, I had a discussion with a group of three girls, who all were studying the (classical) flute at the conservatory (so skill-wise, they were above me, no doubt). They had this little music group which got my interest so we started talking. At some point I think I mentioned the words "sax", "jazz" and "improvisation", but not necessarily in that order. They laughed at it, trashing it as something for n00bs, definately not The Way Music Should Be. I discussed about free expression, made art parallells, but then one of the girls argued that music is not really an art, but a form of entertainment bound by strict rules. Something snapped inside of me, and I wanted to say interesting stuff like yaarh think outside of the box for a second!, defend the honor of jazz and its spirit, but instead I took a long sip from my champagne and didnt bother to continue (no, I hadnt brought my sax along - yes, if I had a sax at that point I wouldve kicked their booties with the best improv I couldve mustered)... anyway, we all had a blast after that (no, really, it seemed we all clicked in other musical areas). Eventually, the girls played a little concert (yes, they brought their flutes along). And well, it was *extremely hard* for me not to giggle like a little girl at first. Three flutes together is just plain SILLY :).... then it hit me. It was equivalent to what I was doing with my jazz, theres the same sacrifice and motivation... except that they tried to reinvent the classical genre, instead of something a little more contemporary. After that realisation, it was a lot easier to maintain a steady face and get into the music. The remainder of the party was just cool - and they let me flute a while as well (played Yellow Submarine and stuff, jes cool :). Okay, the moral: even if others diss you and your style, stay cool, keep an open mind and dont stoop to their level [and yes, in retrospect I was glad I hadnt reacted too to their improv-bashing (okay, maybe they saw me ostentatively roll my eyes, but thats it :)- it meant that officially I had done the wise thing ;] *anecdote mode: off*
27. Nov 2003 16:29
Vip, you whip your flute out at a party with three chicks? I am impressed!
27. Nov 2003 16:44
 That is true, but i was more thinking about the sounds that the author uses and the fact that the song does not "feel" tracked, it feels "coded"... *confused*
27. Nov 2003 16:47
 Please dane, hurry up with the new JCH pack...
27. Nov 2003 16:55
Ah, okay, entertainer vs. artist. That sounds different, but it isnt. Youre still an artist. If you happen to be an artist in a more popular genre such as to call yourself entertainer, that is up to you. As for whether improvisation has merit for others but myself, that is up to the others to decide. Many of the tunes I made are the products of those improvisation sessions. Is it fun to see that some like those tunes? Yes, certainly. Does that define or guide the way I do music? Stated otherwise: does that mean that the subjective opinion of others guide my ways of doing music? Not a chance. :) Will I be like Van Gogh one day? Sorry, but I cannot predict time. I cannot tell you how far I will go in music (for the same money, I get a steady job, a family, a house and never look back) and what I will achieve, and I certainly cannot predict if my music will be the talk of future generations long after I turn around in my coffin. And actually, why would you want to be the next Van Gogh? He had a terrible life and rarely sold any of his paintings. He was scoffed at, dissed and whatnot. He just kept going because his painting defined him. It was all he had. Just as I, you and everyone else here keep going, following our dreams... [Van Gogh]"Oh, wow. So, my Sunflowers sold over 50 million dollars, did they!? Well golly gee wiz, why dont you mail it to last CENTURY, when I could actually enjoy the money?" [Rabid Fan]"But youre really famous now!" [Van Gogh]"Whatever, kid. See you in the afterlife."
27. Nov 2003 16:57
Hardy har har. Somehow I knew that was coming, and to add a little oil to the flame: for the record, I played one of their flutes. :P
27. Nov 2003 17:25
Something Ive encountered more than once, is that the more schooled you are as a performer, the less likely it is that you will "play" with music or for that matter try to compose something of your own. Some people even use it as an excuse - "Ive never learned how to experiment". A class mate of mine had studied the piano for something like nine years, but she was truly amazed when I improvised a little on my keyboard, something she claimed she would never do on her own?!
27. Nov 2003 17:38
Exactly, Anders. Being classically schooled for a comparable period of time, it was hard to break loose. But imho, it paid off and its a step I recommend everyone to do.
27. Nov 2003 19:30
 I was dreaming instead of one mega-tune composed using (all) the editors around, where each composer add his peaces using a different player engine.
This task is hard even because it require lot of programming for let all the player to be dynamically loaded for executing a little peace of the music.
However even using only one editor the challenge will be fantastic.
27. Nov 2003 19:45
I am goin crazy over JCH or i am so utterly stupid..i want to make a SIMPLE sound...not any apprego,pulse or filters..just a PIIIIP.... please...someone :-)
27. Nov 2003 20:14
 Thanks Vip for mentioning the name "assman"!!! I have worked a lot on myself to forget this name as they called me this way in school (while they are collecting their teeth today). But whatever, since there is such a cool votingsystem in CSDB that you can downvote people anonymously, make yourself ready for a damned hot "1 point" for your skills, hehe. (He called my Assman, ARGH! ARGH! ARGH!!!)
27. Nov 2003 20:28
*looks at * I am very sorry, but that is not my post. My post is , where I react to , but it is not mine. But hey, if you want to give me a 1 for my skills, based on a post I didnt make, go right ahead.
27. Nov 2003 20:32
Okay... a beep? In the editor, press Z to get into the instrument table, then enter 00 8a 80 00 00 00 00 00?for instrument 00. Now press /, then L and enter 00-41 and 01-7F. Press : and enter 08 00 00 00. Press F2 and play around with the keys to test your beep on different pitches :). F7/F8 to change the octaves.
27. Nov 2003 20:59
27. Nov 2003 21:22
 It sounds horrible now after som tweaking :-) Hopefully i will be able to transfer my favourite sounds from GT soon.
28. Nov 2003 00:04
kenho, bad news. you cant. gt and its soundsetup works somewhat different than jch.
good news - jch will make you forget the old gt sounds. =)
28. Nov 2003 00:11
28. Nov 2003 00:36
28. Nov 2003 01:07
28. Nov 2003 01:17
Nekkid on all four?
28. Nov 2003 01:18
Dane, will you be making something for Xmas, c64wise, too?
28. Nov 2003 02:42
Uh, not sure. I was thinking of doing something for Deadline - but you never know. Some bastard Christmas cover might pop up.
28. Nov 2003 03:36
Im on the verge of finishing something Xmas weirdness. Was really funny too, as the editor crashed just before I got to finish the entire melody sequence. *grrrr* Had to re-enter the entire thing a second time... woo-fxggin-hoo. Tired now... must... seek... bed... good night! (ps: Dane, bring that bastard on :)
28. Nov 2003 08:20
Dane: Have you started drinking Pepsi without me? It feels like were starting to drift apart... :(
28. Nov 2003 08:29
But if I let you go, I will never know, what my life would be, holding you close to me. Will I ever see, you smiling back at me? How will I know, if I let you go?
28. Nov 2003 08:40
 Ok. That is bad. But anyway, i will try. There are some instruments that i really like. And my plan was to learn JCH by converting one of my GT tunes over to JCH. IF i get it to work i?ll write the process down and post it somewere... :-)
28. Nov 2003 08:42
btw "paper shuriken" is always on my sid play list...
28. Nov 2003 12:51
 - i think youre better off learning how to make the sounds first and do the conversion job later .. i remember that, when i was migrating from john player over to jch, i started doing a 1<>1 copy of the soundsetup of one of my tunes, and i ended up getting the most awful and badly programmed pulses and instruments that ever came out of my sid. i had to start over, or rather - i had to learn how to make good sounds in jch, until i could finally port my tune (which was iced aliens, my first ever released jch-tune =)
28. Nov 2003 13:02
GT lets you achieve as good sounds as JCH, I think. Especially after numerous improvements introduced by Lasse. It just takes some time and effort. Take "Floatee". Soundwise, its one of the better sidtunes Ive ever heard.
28. Nov 2003 13:08
 "Floatee" is my 1st position in my top10.
28. Nov 2003 13:09
 ...and my unique 9 in the compo too.
28. Nov 2003 13:20
SB: No it will not, "hifi" hardrestart (*) and pulse step-programming are missing..
(*) Though, this can currently be somewhat hacked in by using 09 00 as first step of wavetable..
28. Nov 2003 13:21
 Thanks for the tip. After i got the minitutorial yesterday i have managed to get the program to make sounds, even strings (7f loop command in arpeggio table) now i want to learn how to make drums...I really do not get where you put in which waveform you shall use. In the arpeggio table one can change, like 01 80 would be noise and 42 in the table would be one of the other waves...i must read more in the "documentation"
Thanks alot guys and keep those tips coming :-)
28. Nov 2003 13:22
Which is how TFX does it. You do your hardrestart yourself.
28. Nov 2003 13:42
kenho, drums are always build the same way (starting with midfreq to highfreq noise and scaling down some 2-5 notes using either 4X with a 08 00 00 00 pulse setting or a simple 1X), but it takes quite some tweaking-effort to actually make em sound good.
and i still aim to make some more wooden drums in the future (glenns tune kinda got me motivated when it comes to the snare =)
28. Nov 2003 13:56
The raw structure of drums might always be the same (its not cast in stone, though), but I find myself tweaking the drums in every tune, adjusting volume, waveforms, even deciding whether or not to go over two voices rather than one. For a total organic feel of your tune, tweak and test everytime until you get the desired results.
28. Nov 2003 14:02
thanks again! I usually use a drum which have a bass sound in it (like 2 merged sounds, one drum and one bass string) i also have those sounds serated for tweaking of the song. the snare drum is only one sound (might change that...could be good for tweaking)
i will test all this in the weekend....cannot test at work...aaargh :-)
28. Nov 2003 14:04
serated....lol :-) it should have been separated
28. Nov 2003 14:05
Vip, Amen. Doing new drum sounds and experimenting with percussion is actually one of the more rewarding aspects of composing, imho. I have loads fun doing it!
28. Nov 2003 14:21
 I really like the new hardrestart, and I dont really miss pulse step-programming. However... what 09 00 are you talking about? Whats the exact effect of using that?
28. Nov 2003 14:23
My favorite moment simply is when I press F3 and hear the finished tune rolling out of the speakers - looped or not :>.
28. Nov 2003 14:26
Pulse step programming is often underrated, as you cant hear the effect it has straight away. However over time, I found it to be a very powerful tool - in conjunction with $41 sounds, its just as important as the waveform table, actually.
28. Nov 2003 14:38
no amen for me? =) i already stated that tweaking is important =)
28. Nov 2003 14:47
SB, try and Youll notice :P
28. Nov 2003 15:38
 I dont have time, tell me :)
28. Nov 2003 15:47
Two good applications of pulse step-programming I know:
1) Drum+bass combined in an instrument. For drumpart pulse is $80 and for bass something else (more narrow, like $40)
2) Galway-like synth sounds, where pulse first modulates fast and then slower, when vibrato begins. Very beautiful sound..
28. Nov 2003 15:52
step-programming is also something thats unavoidable once youre up to some more advanced filtering (i.e. in a drum and bass combination, where you actually dont want the drum to be completely eaten up by the filter)
28. Nov 2003 15:57
Hmm, i?m a little confused. afaik you cannot step program in JCH or?? so if i understand  correctly one cannot mix for example a drum and a wave in JCH? Quite difficult to make tunes if that is the case.
28. Nov 2003 16:02
Kenho, please use the JCH-depacker and have a look in "Pools in Poison" for instance. Theres a lot of things you can do if you put your mind to it.
28. Nov 2003 16:11
 Ok i will do that...thanks
28. Nov 2003 16:14
Hmm, i was thinking of opening a JCH thread in csdb for us JCH newbies to ask questions to all you superJCHhaxxors. Later on it might develop to a faq for JCH which can be included in the new pack Dane is developing... Is this a good idea?
28. Nov 2003 16:20
Yes, why not?
28. Nov 2003 16:29
Ok, i?ll do that tonight. The reason i want to change forum is that when this compo is over then this thread is closed and a forum for that program is needed :-) (i hope other people than me will use it.)
28. Nov 2003 16:42
 Dalezy, youre mixing up pulse step-programming with step-programming in general. Of course one cant do proper instruments without filtertable, but without pulsetable, thats a different story. Although Id appreciate if its implemented in GT one day ;)
28. Nov 2003 16:53
Hmmmm, I wonder whatever happened to the promised results. Not that Im impatient, but... *bites his own ass*
28. Nov 2003 17:00
But you would be surprised by the results of audience voting ;-) It seems that Ill be continuing with results during weekend so late sunday, early monday morning is the definite term of the publishing. Stay tuned !
28. Nov 2003 17:18
Didnt I say that the results will be delayed (for an unknown reason, more or less :))
28. Nov 2003 17:19
I have to state that I would rather bite Vips ass, but he seems to be too far away.
28. Nov 2003 17:30
You are quite athletic if you manage to bite yourself down there. Not that Ive tried myself.
28. Nov 2003 17:49
Im more athletic and sporty than Greg Louganis ever was.
28. Nov 2003 17:55
*wets finger, taps it on bum and makes pschhh sound* Yeah! Always wanted to do that. :] Btw, my Xmas tune for oycsomethingsomething2k3 is ready, but it didnt turn out to be a reggae tune, Anders :). But Ill keep the Jamaican flavor in mind for the next time. Word.
28. Nov 2003 18:05
Good luck - with one week to go on the oy2003cdc, there seems to be no official entries yet.
28. Nov 2003 18:17
AC: the most entries will be delivered when deadline is over, you know? :P
28. Nov 2003 18:33
I dont really do it for the compo, its just fun to be able to release something for Xmas. Also, Pi could be waiting for the deadline before uploading the schtuff?
28. Nov 2003 20:01
Hm, I wonder what the meaning of this sentence is: "All entries will be released short after they arrive." ;-)
28. Nov 2003 22:27
Whoaa, I though I missed out the compo results by now.. but it seems im just in time like always;)
Well, good luck to all of you and I must say I really enjoyed making a sid after a long time again :))
28. Nov 2003 22:32
Whoaa, I though I missed out the compo results by now.. but it seems im just in time like always;)
Well, good luck to all of you and I must say I really enjoyed making a sid after a long time again :))
28. Nov 2003 22:38
Long time? Wasnt your previous tune (very nice one BTW) released at the Primary Star party?
28. Nov 2003 22:39
Hey, GH. Hoe staan de zaken? Komen er nog Sids of te druk? :) (sorry, couldnt resist using the mother tongue)
28. Nov 2003 22:40
And since you were so nice... good luck to you too.
28. Nov 2003 23:25
Koszmarna ta wasza flamandzka czkawka :) (sorry, couldnt resist... etc.)
28. Nov 2003 23:34
The JCH thread is up and running at csdb now...happy posting...and guys, reveal all your secrets now :-)
29. Nov 2003 00:17
 Oh sorry Vip... I thought you were the "Assman". To the real Assman : Whereever you are, Ill find you! hehe
29. Nov 2003 00:37
sb, mam pewien czkawka, puszka metalowa ja pić twoj piwo?
29. Nov 2003 00:51
SB: Something ghastly about my Flemish, mmm? >:P
29. Nov 2003 01:44
Yes. Seems like your knowledge of Polish is better than my knowledge of Flemish :)
29. Nov 2003 01:56
Flamandzka kinda gave it away :)
29. Nov 2003 11:54
Eat this: W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie i Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie. (even You will understand this try to pronaunce :D:D:D) (i suppose You wont see proper polish letters but it doesnt matter :P)
29. Nov 2003 14:14
Hmm... W w trzcinie i z tego slynie. Man, that kind of a Polish tongue breaker or something?
29. Nov 2003 14:15
Hmm... W *tortures tongue* w trzcinie i *molests tongue some more* z tego slynie. Man, that kind of a Polish tongue breaker or something?
29. Nov 2003 14:39
vip, you sometimes seem to press the submit button way too early =)
29. Nov 2003 15:30
You cant blame Vip for being submissive.
29. Nov 2003 16:43
No, not really. The original message was the same as the second, except that I used smaller than/greater than symbols instead of asterisks. So I had to post again to have the correct message. And submissive? The day I submit is the day I move into a wooden box under the ground. :)
29. Nov 2003 17:32
Well, to be honest, all the sids released recently werent made this year ;) Yes, Ill still be making sids, because its fun doing it :)
29. Nov 2003 18:59
Send your native tongue breaker today.
29. Nov 2003 19:15
All right... say it fast... "Spring Sprang, sprak Sprong tot Sprang en Sprang sprong omdat Sprong sprak, Spring Sprang." or (a classic) "Er schreed een snip over t schip, die sneed met zijn bek t spek van t spit. Wie zag er ooit een snip schrijden en met zijn bek t spek van t spit snijden, zoals deze snip deed, die over het schip schreed en met zijn bek t spek van t spit sneed." :D
29. Nov 2003 21:07
 hehe, visst kan jag g?ra det sb. S? h?r har du lite tungbrytarsvenska.
29. Nov 2003 21:44
How is it possible that I can see swedish letters?? I dont remember installing these ones :P Kenho, Vip do You see polish letters properly in your Win ??
29. Nov 2003 21:45
 I would gladly try that second one, but I dont know the correct pronunciation of certain words (good excuse, isnt it). What does it mean, by the way?
29. Nov 2003 21:49
 Kenho, I suppose this is something about me (or does there exist a Swedish word "sb"?) - care to translate? Fancy demonstrating some Swedish tongue breaker to us? :)
29. Nov 2003 22:10
I had problems with that when I was 4 years old: "Six sheep on Swedish ship".
W czasie suszy szosa sucha
29. Nov 2003 23:03
I forgot a nice English tongue breaker from my primary school. Something about woodchucks. Does anybody know it?
29. Nov 2003 23:25
Thats a Monkey Island 2 Classic(tm) now: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? :)
29. Nov 2003 23:28
 Its an old one, something about a snipe wandering on a ship, who cut, with its beak, the bacon from a roast. Doesnt sound goed in english though.
29. Nov 2003 23:46
Through three cheese trees three free fleas flew. While these fleas flew, freezy breeze blew. Freezy breeze made these three trees freeze. Freezy trees made these trees cheese freeze. Thats what made these three free fleas sneeze. Then I saw Susie sitting in a shoe shine shop. Where she sits she shines, and where she shines she sits.
30. Nov 2003 00:00
 i was only saying "sure i can do that sb, here are some toungebreakingswedish" but here is a real one: sex laxar i en laxask :-)
30. Nov 2003 00:07
 i think you can see all "normal" letters in a browser, the languages like chinese and so on needs two bytes per character and those are not included in ascii standard. i think you can see the "special" characters from all european countries without installing a special character set...just browse around the net on spanish, italian, french, swedish, danish mm mm mm sites and you will see.
30. Nov 2003 11:17
sidcompo3 results, mmmmm
30. Nov 2003 12:52
"Sju sj?sjuka sj?m?n" something (or if it was sj?jungfrur - mermaids).
30. Nov 2003 17:08
Eat this: Fischers Fritz fischt frische Fische, frische Fische fischt Fischers Fritz!
30. Nov 2003 17:29
30. Nov 2003 19:14
How about the Bavarian classic one "Oachkoatzlschwoaf" :P
30. Nov 2003 19:15
Hm, I hope I can enjoy the results tomorrow before going to work...
30. Nov 2003 19:22
30. Nov 2003 19:51
Take your time, no need to rush things :)
30. Nov 2003 21:03
Hehe.. yeah... just put there some extra points, and there and there .... ;)
01. Dec 2003 07:14
01. Dec 2003 08:58
Everything is finally revealed. I can sleep now. Report any bugs, ommisions or anything important here in the reactions, or use E-mail. Have fun ;-)
01. Dec 2003 09:13
 Ok CreaMD, lets start crying. Mermaids tune is 10th in my top10 and Im a juror, hence can you explicate that phrase?
01. Dec 2003 09:16
 Uhm, ok, Id understand by myself, gain useful time.
01. Dec 2003 09:17
understand -> understood... how much difficult the monday morning is :D
01. Dec 2003 09:29
Congratulations to Alih and Lasse! And thanks to CreamD for organising this.
01. Dec 2003 09:38
ups that is a BUG!! that should be jammer gotta correct it asap sorry Alih and Jammer
01. Dec 2003 09:45
...I have to repack the credits in executables too... theyll be temporarily down. Justamoment.
CreaMD scratching his head...
01. Dec 2003 09:45
CreaMD, that jury ranks table totally r0xx, tnx!
01. Dec 2003 10:02
Creamd, thanx for great organizing! Congratulations goes to Jammer and Cadaver.
01. Dec 2003 10:07
Okay everything corrected (at least I hope ;-)
01. Dec 2003 10:09
Thanx dudes, i need sleep see you later. One more MuMaid and gotta sleep ;-)
01. Dec 2003 10:21
Thanks to CreaMD for all his hard work, and all the composers taking part - its great to see that even in 2003 NEW high-quality work on a machine that has been declared dead every year since about 1987...
01. Dec 2003 10:33
Well, congrats to Jammer then! :D
01. Dec 2003 10:35
2003AD and the SIDs still kickin. Congrats to all, you c00l SID variegate fruits!
01. Dec 2003 10:44
wow, i?m not last!! Thanks to CreaMD for organizing this compo!! Well done!
01. Dec 2003 10:53
and congrats to the winners ofcourse!
01. Dec 2003 11:59
"Congratulations goes to Jammer and Cadaver." aka Goat riders :P Has anyone ridden a goat?? :D
01. Dec 2003 12:02
Yeah, to paraphrase Reed, "two words gentlemen: Goat Tracker" *smiles at Dane*
01. Dec 2003 12:04
Well, complete jury voting is to be be published as well, isnt it?
01. Dec 2003 12:05
BTW Ive signed the work as Jammer/MSL/Samar/Exon? Where is the last part in txt file?? :P
01. Dec 2003 12:07
"Cybersoap" and "Floatee" should share 4th place in the audience voting, right? Or were there some hidden calculations involved?
01. Dec 2003 12:22
01. Dec 2003 12:30
Oh yeah, thanks Roman, almost forgot :)
01. Dec 2003 12:49
gr8 to see myself in the upper half of this really strong and great field of competitors. The fact that the audience voted me better than the jury makes me even more smile.
BTW: Did I hear something against GoatTracker-arranged-music? ;-)
01. Dec 2003 12:54
still, 5 jch tunes are dominating the top10 :)
random jch user
01. Dec 2003 12:58
In both votings top 6, there are 3 GT tunes and 3 JCH tunes. OK, OK - I agree on a draw ;)
01. Dec 2003 13:06
hohoho... 9th place in JRank. Im goin to tell my momma. congratulations to all!
01. Dec 2003 13:06
is there something like final results as well? so far i see almost everybody having 2 different results.
01. Dec 2003 13:14
 It would be a little bit strange to include such results, as one tune got disqualified from the jury voting.
If youre curious, after summing up both voting results (1st place = 43 points, 2nd = 42 points etc.), the ranking would look as follows:
3) your humble and obedient servant me
01. Dec 2003 14:00
Erm, not really: I would be at shared 3rd place together with Cadaver and Abaddon. Small miscalculation and wishful thinking :)
01. Dec 2003 14:30
01. Dec 2003 14:35
I dont know the results (its hard not to click the .txt link, but Im holding up) as I dont really care about them (yet must.. resist... instinctive urge to look... arrgh), but I do know that I want to congratulate everyone who participated in the compo rather than only the relative top entries - that alone makes you a winner in my books. Kudos to CreamD, who can now finally sleep well again... it has been a good year, and may all the Abba fans sing Thank you for the Music now to wrap it all up.
01. Dec 2003 14:35
Final results, yes I had such suggestions, but Ill think of some solution for next year. Even things like how many jury members gave the tune 1st place, (or have included the tune in their top 10 rank) would be interesting consideration. Anyone willing to take some statistic explorations? If yes, here
is the .xls file. Btw. I havent mentioned it anywhere, but 62 valid audience votesheets (including those sent by jurors) were taken into consideration.
01. Dec 2003 14:37
 Yeah I think everyone who dared to participate in this competition deserves respect. Especially the newcomers and first time ever compo participants. Congratulations to you all.
01. Dec 2003 15:02
 Wow, what a fun to take a closer look at that sheet. Sidder got 1st place from Maktone and Cadaver - cool :)
01. Dec 2003 15:24
Great compo. Many tunes to add to playlist (already added, of course). I was quite strict in my voting, hope I didnt offend anyone! Music tastes, thoughts on composition... its all subjective. ;)
01. Dec 2003 15:27
WOW! Did some people award me 9 points for my entry, or do I simply not understand the jury ranks sheet! Heheh :)
01. Dec 2003 15:28
This was great. Thanks everyone for this great compo. It has been my first foray into SID music releasing and I am very happy with the results. The public didnt seem to like my tune very much, but the jury voting put me almost halfway in the list, which I think is great for a complete compo newcomer! Thats why I cared about the results, its very important IMO when you start up, as someone here said waaay above the message list. I would welcome comments and constructive criticism about my humble entry! Will surely participate in the next compo. Again, thanks to everybody, and see you soon, hopefully ;)
01. Dec 2003 15:53
LOL the rank table looks like Matrix ROTFL
01. Dec 2003 16:53
There must be an error: did Six give 1 point to himself?
01. Dec 2003 17:15
wow, two people give me 10 points!!! I am very happy right now that so many people had my tune on their top ten. Thank you all!!!!!!
01. Dec 2003 17:50
which formula did you guys base your voting on?
preferred style+quality of the melody+quality of the sounds-choice of editor/catchiness?
i cant quite follow the order of some of the votes =)
01. Dec 2003 17:50
^this should have looked like math btw
01. Dec 2003 17:54
Hmmm...Yes he did... 8-O ... what do you think should I do? What now?
01. Dec 2003 18:04
dalezy, I wrote comments to my jury votes. I guess youll find out :)
01. Dec 2003 18:16
Id like to write down a few personal congratulations:
- Jammer and Cadaver, for being the winners
- Abaddon, Fanta and Dane, for their very high places in both rankings
- Pontonius, for a big leap forward; youre really progressing man, keep that up
- Asterion, Kenho and Turtle, for proving that they are high-quality newcomers of the year
- Yaemon, for coming back to sidmusic after 12 years of silence, and participating with very nice, albeit totally underrated tune
- Hukka, for another underrated tune; your melodies are really good
- Vip, for doing the most powerfully sounding tune of the compo and for being an excellent adversary in SC3 forum discussions
- Sidder, for filling the jury votesheet, despite his completely drunken state
- Gerard Hultink for the most twisted tune and for making me a proud man :)
- all the other participants, for keeping the spirit alive.
Small Minded Boy
01. Dec 2003 18:18
 Substract that one point from the total amount of points. It leaves him 5, so nothing really changes - I was just wondering if that isnt an error of some sort.
01. Dec 2003 18:21
dane, where can i see them?
creamd, the audience voting has a bit different results in the textfile than in the online version ..
01. Dec 2003 18:44
Ill check it.
01. Dec 2003 18:47
Aha I see.. the places. Well, sorry for that, but thats probably also packed in the note on the executable disk and Im not goint to hack Socis displayer for the third time then save the code, save out to file pack with exomizer, replace the files in bot d64s zip it and upload on the web again. So it will most probably stay like that. (at least until the friday when I hopefully get some time to process the other interesting SidCompo data for the publishing here.
01. Dec 2003 18:55
Damn, I was crap :(
01. Dec 2003 19:02
Congrats to the winners of this compo! Also thanks for the few superb votings for my tune in the jury top 10 ranks!
01. Dec 2003 19:02
: How about adding all used frequencies, pulse waves and filter values, taking the square root out of it, dividing with 64, shifting down by one and use that to score each tune? :-)
01. Dec 2003 19:05
A shame that "Intelligent Technology" has such a low place. C64-Electronica at its best!
01. Dec 2003 19:21
 I did not have any particular formula for voting, if i liked the tune the first time i put a note on a paper. I listened throug all songs very many times at work and at home and some of the songs became better by time. for example "cybersoap". But "illumination" i knew almost instantly that this is my number one, so beautiful song...getting goosebumps :-) i was very confused about "Le tartar..." but after accidently listened to it for about 20 minutes i felt that this is a strong tune. I can go on and on.... So many great tunes...
01. Dec 2003 19:21
Just wait until 2004.... Ill do crapper :)
RicHARD the Dozy Git
01. Dec 2003 19:21
 I compleatly agree!!
01. Dec 2003 19:27
 Yeah Le Tartar is a very good tune, very well balanced sound for comfortable listening. To tell the truth I would like to hear more of such $11 waveform tunes.
01. Dec 2003 19:28
I was an adversary? I thought we were *discussing* something relevant.
01. Dec 2003 19:31
 Thanks for the kind words!
01. Dec 2003 20:58
 Thank you for the comment. My compotune turned out way crappier than I wouldve wanted, but I was in a hurry :o| Im quite surprised to see that I fared as well as I did in the audience rank, though. (BTW, your tune was my favourite ;o)
01. Dec 2003 21:18
I just realised Andy gave my tune 2nd place in the compo. As I didnt vote for his tune (I dont think groupmembers should be able to vote for each other), I dont really think it is fair I should recieve 9 points from him in the jury votings. I dont want to upset the applecart, but that is how I feel. ;)
01. Dec 2003 21:25
Yeah place 33. for me... coool ;)
01. Dec 2003 21:29
Roman: I see my jury votes numbered as #6 but I cant remember making this kind of votes... especially putting Dane to #10 (tsss, tsss, tsss)
01. Dec 2003 21:32
Hey Roman, I have problems to understand the jury vote rankings: There are numbers from 1 to 42.. These are jury members, right? Is it possible to make them visible or do you have set them anonymously for purpose?
01. Dec 2003 21:35
Ah, now I see the damned listing of jury members. Sorry. My fault.
01. Dec 2003 21:39
Roman: forget all of my mumbling. I got it completely wrong. The table doesnt show the ranks but the points... coming late from work, going shopping with your wife and kid, hacking stoopid posts, you know!
01. Dec 2003 21:50
Turtle, we both should better disappear very quiet, before its getting loud here.. :P
01. Dec 2003 21:53
taps, taps, slither *puff*
01. Dec 2003 22:21
Woohoo, better than last year ;)
01. Dec 2003 22:33
;-) Sorry for that guys, I didnt know this table presentation of jury votes will cause so much troubles ;-). Yeah the numbers in the fields are points.
01. Dec 2003 22:53
 Vip: Yea, we were discussing, but we were on the different sides of the barricade, everytime. You know my attitude towards those discussions, I enjoyed them and will miss them... til the next SID Compo starts :)
Or perhaps youd like to be called a partner? :D
01. Dec 2003 23:26
Yes, entertainer, I know :). But adversary is too harsh since I only debated, not argued. The correct term would be discussion partner, yes, or (looking into dictionary) panelist. Indeed, panelists we were. Im not sure about the next SID compo, though. Time will unveil the answer to that...
02. Dec 2003 01:42
so those debates werent made up to end in blood?
02. Dec 2003 01:49
*glares at Dalezy and cracks knuckles, closing in* That can be arranged, if you wish...
02. Dec 2003 02:10
vip, k, before that we both should make clear about each others martial arts and wrestling backgrounds. :)
02. Dec 2003 02:10
^ ?funky english i like, anyone want to teach
02. Dec 2003 02:13
oh. and. happy birthday steppe!
may i suggest you to play some random birthday-songs from the hvsc?
02. Dec 2003 04:16
Thank you for the music! :D
02. Dec 2003 04:32
An interesting fact:
After dalezy, I was the most commercial voter.. since most of the songs in the top10 where voted on by me :)
02. Dec 2003 04:33
And the rest is just bullshit !! ehhhhh..i mean; just a matter of taste! :)
02. Dec 2003 04:46
Yeah, thats maybe a good idea! or maybe not!
02. Dec 2003 09:26
, However, musics are spread in executable format with executable note containing results and if there will be one more person who will ignore this fact which is there already for 3rd year and dares to suggest this great idea again to me. I will execute him immediately.
02. Dec 2003 10:25
02. Dec 2003 11:42
02. Dec 2003 18:37
WELL, FAR FROM SATISFIED WITH MY RESULT.. ANYWAY THESE ARE THE FACTS, GOT TO TAKE THEM LIKE A "TWISTED" MAN..;) CONGRATS TO ALL OF YOU FOR MAKING THIS A GREAT COMPO AND IN PRATICULAR JAMMER AND FANTA FOR GIVING ME SOME IDEAS TO THINK ABOUT.. TILL NEXT TIME!
02. Dec 2003 19:02
*pshhhht* dont scream.
02. Dec 2003 19:35
no need to scream indeed.. hmmm i wasnt aware of using capital letters.. it surely didnt look like it when typing.. strange..
02. Dec 2003 20:18
Whoops, I looked at the wrong results :)
02. Dec 2003 20:33
 OK, artist :) We were panelists (have to take a peek into a dictionary to see what exatly does it mean, hehe). Before I disappear: you shouldnt have taken the remark about having thin chances of being a next Van Gogh personally. It wasnt addressed to you, really, even taking into account what your first name is. :) And thanks for reminding me of that woodchucks tongue twister.
02. Dec 2003 20:54
Right..... Time for me to stop talking out of my backside for once :)
I did not realise that I was looking at the wrong page in the results section. I was looking at the Jury Voting (Ten people). I noticed that the scene were not downvoting me after all, I scored 299 points, and I am pleased with these results. For those who voted me those 299 points.
Many thanks and I appreciate it :)
BTW: Congratulations to Lasse for winning the compo, and Smalltownboy for being 2nd place.
Richard Bayliss / TND
02. Dec 2003 21:48
"wrong" page? Both ranks count IMO, are the jurors not part of the scene? Dont know why you call it the "wrong" chart, though I have my conclusions.
Personally, I am very well chuffed by my performance in the jury voting, since this is the chart i was most looking forward to.
02. Dec 2003 21:55
02. Dec 2003 22:50
SB, I wasnt. And I hope that the composers here are smart enough to not be guided by these results, but rather (as Gerard so eloquently put it over mIRC a while ago) by that little orchestra in your head. Follow your muse, not the masses.
02. Dec 2003 23:17
 How did you know I have a "little orchestra in my head"??? Do you have unrestricted access to my brain while Im sleeping? ;) [...starts getting paranoid...]
BTW, I cant remember if I said so here, I was more than pleased with my placing, and rather surprised too. However I am one of those people who composes for themselves primarily, so any result wouldnt have upset me... hehe
And how the hell do you encode a in your posts here? ;)
03. Dec 2003 01:54
something tells me that gh doesnt sound like mtr1975, nor does it rhyme. =)
03. Dec 2003 06:17
;) Um yeah... I was just being foolish... I tend to talk a lot of crap at the best of times... :P And I still want to find how to encode a carrige return here.. ;)
03. Dec 2003 06:33
03. Dec 2003 10:49
Im 666 and 888.
You do the math :D
03. Dec 2003 10:55
Its interesting looking at the spread of votes in the Jury chart - it proves we all have different tastes, as well as enjoying the top tunes...
03. Dec 2003 11:03
what would live be without this variety?
03. Dec 2003 11:28
I wonder if important stuff works too... Nice compo btw.
03. Dec 2003 11:29
Err.. I thought it would be red?
03. Dec 2003 11:36
try CC3333 instead
03. Dec 2003 11:58
The mistake I did was to include hyphens, which gets encoded into HTML entities instead of remaining as hyphens... Oh well, I will not try to further hack into this blog-like forum. :)
03. Dec 2003 12:59
Merman, exactly... which is why the votes themselves are irrelevant. You cant compare genres, or tastes, so the results are meaningless. What remains are ininterpretable statistics.
03. Dec 2003 15:46
It would be fun to know if any of my 310 points in the public voting was a 10 or if it was 310 people who voted 1 :-) Just a thought for the other statistics that you shall present on friday.
03. Dec 2003 17:10
It seems the number of audience votes was 301 (13540/45 = 300.89 ?), so you probably cant have votes from more people than that.
03. Dec 2003 17:17
 "Follow your muse, not the masses" - my so-called muse left me right after I had failed to sell more than 10 thousand copies of debut LP. HA, HA, HA.
"the results are meaningless" - cannot agree here (well, what else could you expect). For me, they are working as indicators if the audience liked certain tunes or not. Of course it does not mean that "Floatee" and "Illumination" are objectively good. But they are regarded as such by a huge majority of those who voted.
Vip, Id like to dedicate an excerpt of "Ya Playin Yaself" by Jeru the Damaja to you: "the race is on, but I wont compete / in this competition, because I have a greater mission"
03. Dec 2003 17:53
"For me, they are working as indicators if the audience liked certain tunes or not." - I thought like this in the past. The truth is that we have had an amalgam of different *styles* presented here, and they. cannot. be. compared. Yes, in a sense this has been a popularity poll - which style is the most popular at the moment?
In that sense, there is a certain meaning. But we couldve settled this with a questionnaire as well. Can the results be considered adjacent to a composers current state? No. Should the composer compose in function of the results? Never. If you do, you renounce yourself. You trade your muse for the masses. That which comes back in return is shallow, and meaningless.
Think of the Eurovision Song contest. How the tunes presented there are tailormade for the contest. People with very good music (from my perspective) get rejected because they arent conform to the Eurovision standard. Think about how insane that is. Dont fall into the same trap.
The passage quoted from Jeru may ring true, but it is not correct: there is no greater mission, there is only truth.
03. Dec 2003 18:31
I dont think my muse will ever leave me.. and nobody is going to
break my style either. I just got to keep on moving :)
03. Dec 2003 18:35
Of course there is a greater mission - understood as following your little head orchestra (nice name for a band, BTW) completely, instead of tailoring your music to suit the audience. But ones subjective truth and message can be put into his/her music in both cases, thats what I think.
Wait, theres more. If you wrap your message in something more average-ear-friendly, make it sound smooth, professional, powerful - more people will find it attractive and will have a chance to receive what you wanted them to receive. (Theres a thin line between that, and selling your sorry white ass to the masses, but that line _exists_, and I try not to cross it, ever.)
An example: "Dropping the Dishes" and "Eire Outcast" both contain some risky harmonical solutions. But the former has funky rhythm, quite a catchy melody, well crafted sounds, and the latter is completely different - theres nothing a typical SID fan would enjoy to it. In other words, its rather difficult to listen to. Now tell me: which tune of those two has a better chance to make people think about advanced harmonies? Which one will makeem go "hmmmm havent heard such chords and scales before"?
03. Dec 2003 18:56
Umm no, sorry, there is no such fine line, you have "music" and thats it. Simply asserting the statement "making things more average-ear-friendly" as a valid point already "sells your sorry white ass to the masses". It would be the same as, say, Korn making pop tunes a la NSync just so their subjective truth and message can heard by a much larger demographic. Korn makes Korn music because its their way of doing things, and NSync makes NSync because they love it that way. Neither of them would *voluntarily* adapt to feed the masses. In the art parallell, do you think Dali would suddenly paint normal artwork because people tell him thats more average-looker-friendly? The comparison made between Dishes and Outcast is irrelevant, as the tunes have different styles and portray different atmospheres. Id also like to know how many regular listeners (not composers) will ask themselves about advanced chords or scales and use it in their opinion of the tune.
03. Dec 2003 19:49
Nononononono. (As usual.) If I compose and produce a song, constantly thinking what to do to please the audience and forgetting my own voice, thats a sellout. If I strive to achieve the point where no man whose opinion I respect can tell "this sounds wack" and stay reasonable, thats tailoring. In my head, theres an orchestra AND the potential listeners. Both give me ideas, and both are influential.
Comparing "Dishes" and "Outcast" isnt as irrelevant as you might think. In general, "Dishes" is an appropriate proposition for a listener who isnt deeply into more advanced forms, whilst "Outcast" is suitable for the audience searching for something tough and uncompromisively radical, only. Ill give you another example. If it wasnt for Jamiroquai and The Roots, I would most probably never discover jazz, which is currently my favourite style of music. _Now_ Im ready to try some more progressive stuff, such as Coltrane - 7 years ago, it would be nothing but a painful noise to me. You cant begin teaching kids English with "how to use Past Perfect tense correctly" (a skill which I never mastered :>) - "this is a cat and this is a dog" is far more appropriate.
03. Dec 2003 20:09
*sighs* Well then, good luck factoring in the audience. Maybe in a few years or so, youll understand what I was trying to say.
03. Dec 2003 20:29
Why are you so sure that youre somewhere on a higher level of experience? Cant understand it, really. I TOLD you I dont consider myself an artist. And I TOLD you that I respect rules (at least some of them) and appreciate something like external quality control. We have different points of view on almost everything (sexual orientation included :D), but you saying that I dont understand because I havent grown up enough yet is something I couldnt expect.
03. Dec 2003 20:54
I guess I shouldve explained a little more. My father is a painter, and he tried to explain it to me ever since I was little. I didnt understand, and failed to do so for years to come. I went through phases similar like you where I tried to find his point and reason/argue with it. He always sighed, and then told me one day youll get it. It was only four, five years ago that I understood what my father was trying to say. Keep going - in time, Im sure youll understand as well.
03. Dec 2003 23:03
 okidoki, i did not know how many non jury votes there were.
04. Dec 2003 00:49
Heh. Eire Outcast, my 7/4 tune was a rather half-hearted entry trying to create something different but without too much time spent. I agree it sounds thin and does not catch the listener much, but is there something fundamentally wrong behind the basic idea with some odd-rhythm barely-jazz slightly different chord patterns? Actually the NWC/MIDI original I worked from is more successful than my poor SID renderation.
I still think the initial discussion that a compo which neither is supposed to be cutting-edge nor attracting new fans should work as a way for new listeners into the SID scene, is ridiculous. Pack together a few of the finest HVSC SIDs (you have 20 years to pick from) and introduce those to Joe Average rather than feeling embarrassed about the newest compositions not always are the best and most attractive. I can see if you wish that the SID scene kept evolving in a strictly upwards direction, but just like all genres and music environments, that wont happen as long as you dont require a license agreement on everyone willing to compose SID music.
04. Dec 2003 06:41
hrm, a license to write sid music... thats not a bad idea. keep untalented fucks like me away from it ;)
A Life in Hell
04. Dec 2003 07:09
why not just being glad to have the opportunity to write SIDs that _are still_ listened to and to discuss things in here the funny way rather than exaggerate the quality topic.
Who are we to exclude the people (here, the audience) who keep the scene alive and just try to participate a little bit, owning either good or bad talent.
04. Dec 2003 08:05
, : Licence to write sid music? I think someone already suggested that, except he called it "preselection".
04. Dec 2003 08:33
Maybe the next on-line compo should be specifically targetted at attracting new listeners, and thus a preselection jury will be valid to determine what is "nice" to listen to. Preferrably the jury would on beforehand put down a list of what they expect from the contestants - nothing extreme, good sounds, JCH editor, no Metal Warrior clones, no jazz, catchy melodies, preferrably triangle waveforms etc. But this should be part of the initial rules, not superimposed halfways into the compo is running.
04. Dec 2003 09:24
hrm, only triangles sounds a lot like nes, hehe
A Life in Hell
04. Dec 2003 09:49
Why yes, lets do that and make it a Eurovision SID Song contest. I always _loved_ adding tunes to contests like that (see ). Coolness.
04. Dec 2003 11:40
although i promised not to post here again after recieving my hugs(thanks guys) i cant resist when the topic of preselection pops up again. one tune that caught my ear at once was welcome home by murdock which recieved a stunning 0 points from the jury. and then im happy that the musictaste dictators havent taken charge yet. i sometimes wish that i had managed to develope a taste for jazz so my opinion would be as important as certain others
04. Dec 2003 11:47
And yet with pre-selection, the tune from Murdock *might* not have existed. Given the fact that someone would be deciding what got into the final competition, the sensible option would be to go for a middle-of-the-road composition with familiar sounding instruments. So, in a way, the open rules have led to more experimentation - which can only be a good thing in the long run.
04. Dec 2003 13:31
 Apparently being fond of Ed ceased to be attractive enough (so many people manifested the same attitude here... boring...), so now you switched on to something fresh and new. Hollowman, youre extremely original. You stand out of the crowd like no one does. I would bow down, but Im stunned now, wishing I was as gloriously different as you are.
Small View/Minded/etc. Boy
04. Dec 2003 16:43
 I would NEVER participate in such a contest.
04. Dec 2003 16:51
 neither do I
04. Dec 2003 18:35
SB: Dont you sometimes feel that your tendency to draw conclusions about peoples personalities from a very small amount of evidence makes you look stupid?
04. Dec 2003 20:31
Back home from 2 days trip.. deleting 150 spams from firstname.lastname@example.org (go go spambot! ;-) and seeing this discussion.. thats the spirit(us). Gotta get some Ma Tai for this evening. Anyway yeah preselection sucks but on parties it seems to be really necessary. On
Forever we constantly have overload of tunes. I was thinking about some way how to let people decide if the tune should stop playing and the next one could be played (after for example 1:30 mins if over 50% of the voters would be for NEXT tune the tune would be skipped to next one) but this is not technically possible. This would make the compo go faster and preselection wouldnt be needed.
04. Dec 2003 20:33
That doesnt mean forever has preselection..
04. Dec 2003 21:31
Mau Tai, that kind of Chinese booze made from durum wheat? Something like 56% alcohol?
04. Dec 2003 22:15
You mustnt turn your music competition into the Gong Show :). Simply state clearly in the rules how long a tune will be played during the compo. If you set it to two minutes, for example, the composers will know this and adapt the length of their tune for the compo. They might even go as far as to incorporate more effects and changes into those two minutes than if they were to make a 4 minutes tune, dont know. Just be clear in the rules - if you need shorter playtimes, put it there. You wont be disappointed.
04. Dec 2003 22:37
Yeah, I can remember making for instance BlackOut almost 3:00 exactly, as 3 minutes was the playing time at TP. Lots of fun, actually.
05. Dec 2003 00:22
 That does not make me look stupid. I _am_ stupid. I must be, because I fail to see any other reason, apart from Hollowmans personality attributes, and his probable tendency to provoke, for claiming "Welcome Home" the best tune of SC3, sorry. It defies explanation in aesthetic terms.
But you know, my father is a truck driver. Thats why my thoughts are so heavy, stay close to the ground and refuse to fly away in search for new musical experience, which Hollowman, apparently, is able to enjoy.
05. Dec 2003 00:55
Welcome Home.. which I have runned again after Hollowmans input, I found a little bit more enjoybable when I considered someone might like it more than me, but its definitely not tune for top 20 of SidCompo. However, I can accept the fact that someone might find it interesting. A little bit. More. Than me. Whatever. Mai Tai helped.. well also West indian punchm and Castro Cooler maybe too? Whatever. VIP youre right next time Forever music compo rules will state that if tune doesnt meet standards of the jurors (me and Ugha Sids) well choose how long well play it, otherwise the tune will play full 3 mins. That means tunes like Welcome Home might play 1:30 althoug when audience starts to dance on it or even sing-along we will play it longer. Well, how to put it. If you have over 30 tunes for the compo, its not possible to play 30 x 3 mintes as this will kill the audiences enthusiasm. Imagine there are 20-30 more Speccy tunes after C64 music compo ends and audiences perception is already dead. I felt guilty for this on all forevers. We drew our SID weapons and launched a brutal massacre on our poor 3bit 8 bit audience after this only the strongest were able to continue another hour of listening. Isnt it a little bit selfish to think that C64 scene is a belly button of the word. We arent. Especially not on the mixed Atari, Speccy and C64parties. Next year will need some decent solution I hope well find some ;-). Anyway thinking tolerance and overload of compo entries, I recall last Mekka.. it was overload of everything. Definitely not a way to follow. Thanx god C64 compo had only 16 (or something like that) compo tunes submitted. After all that compo stuff we had to listen and watch befora and after the party looked like one big example of artistic (?) vanity. Preselection kills the enthusiasm, but overload of entries kill it either. What would you suggest to please both authors and audience? How to make party-compos go smooths and satisfactorily for all participants?
05. Dec 2003 00:58
++when Im thinkign of++ of tolearance and overlaoad I meant...
05. Dec 2003 09:06
SB: Im sorry too. Im sorry that you cant read. Because it makes trying to discuss things with you very difficult. Nowhere did Hollowman say that Welcome Home was the best tune.
And do yourself a favour; dont take everything so personal. Your aggressive style in this whole discussion doesnt just make you look stupid, but stupid in a pretty childish way.
05. Dec 2003 11:21
smalltown boy, i know you are a member of hvsc crew and we all know that you dont get accepted there unless you have a serious attitude problem, a big ego and is unable to deal with criticism and people in general. but now you really managed to impress me. i have no idea why i like welcome home, to me it just has a nice old datafeel, and i only liked to point out that just because the jury doesnt like a tune doesnt mean that noone likes it, and thats why i dont like preselection.
anyway, now i see what a mistake it was from my side to leave this discussions, letting smalltown retardboy roam free in the sandbox. his idea of his own importance and the value of his opinions(we know you like jazz, you told us that some 100 times, but that you like jazz doesnt necessarily mean that you know better than other, and that you arent a complete moron). seeing sbs way of discussing here my advice is: put on some plain clothes, go out in the garden with the other boys and try talking to them in your normal way. you wouldnt want to wear your best clothes when they get fed up with you and rub your face in the dirt. after a few rough experiences you might learn a thing or two about living in a society,listening to other people and so on. the .sid scene will patiently await the return of their god(i mean woow, he likes jazz!!)
05. Dec 2003 11:29
quote: "next time Forever music compo rules will state that if tune doesn?t meet standards of the jurors (me and Ugha Sid?s) we?ll choose how long we?ll play it, otherwise the tune will play full 3 mins". (note that I say compo as it really means popularity poll)
CreamD, NO! Thats a kind of preselection, even though all tunes are eventually played. Still, the fact that a precontest screening determines the play length is not a good idea. It would be better to state the following in the rules: "Entrants must indicate the playing time of their tune. Every entry will be played for a maximum of x minutes and y seconds, unless the tune length is shorter - then it will be played for the indicated duration". Set x and y how you wish.
This wording makes things a lot more manageable for both entrants and organizers as: (a) the composers are happy because they now know how long they can make their tune. With a limit of 2 minutes, say, they might add a lot more dynamics to a tune than normal. Make it shorter, no problem. Make it longer, no problem, but then you run a risk since the tune is cut after x minutes y seconds tops. Also, there wont be any lame moments where the organizers cut a tune short and offend the composer.
(b) The organizers can set a tune length in the rules with which they can play all entries in an acceptable amount of time (the more entries you *expect*, the shorter the tune length will be, but thats normal). As a pointer, normally the playing time is 3 minutes, but in North, they used 2 minutes and 30 seconds. If you feel that youll get 30+ entries, then 2 minutes might be a good idea. Its also a very simple procedure of playing the music: boot it up, press RUN, wait for x minutes y seconds (unless its a shorter tune), then the next.
Thats my two cents. Its simple to implement, causes little headaches, and offends noone. What more can you ask?
05. Dec 2003 11:47
Hollowman, I get most of your points, but is it necessary to flame at the same time? I think anyone here has had the urge to do so at some point or another, but in a society, isnt being courteous the right thing to do? And considering SBs last few posts, same advice to him. (okay, I admit, flamings *fun*, much more fun than the blandness Im writing here which is *bland* and *boring* and yes, Ive been *so* tempted to bring out the burn. But, the little conscience in my head keeps holding me back. I guess I should let the little band in my head play some Nirvana to soothe/numb the little conscience and then... RRRRAAHHhh! :)
Ive made a few mistakes in the ruling I posted above. Heres the corrected version: "Entrants must indicate the playing time of their tune (= time from the start of the tune until it stops playing or loops for the first time). Every entry will be played for x minutes and y seconds, unless the playing time is shorter - then it will be played for the indicated duration".
05. Dec 2003 12:59
Geee, dont kill each other, guys :P Stay calm, everythings gonna be ok :D
05. Dec 2003 13:06
05. Dec 2003 13:25
[1321[ Observation: Hollowman, you try to win argument by insulting your opponent. Look at the text you wrote, are you proud of youreslf?
05. Dec 2003 14:12
"smalltown boy, i know you are a member of hvsc crew and we all know that you dont get accepted there unless you have a serious attitude problem, a big ego and is unable to deal with criticism and people in general."
Hollowman, youd better control your tongue. My opinions, as presented here, have nothing to do with HVSC team, I speak here on my own, not as a HVSC team member. Ive pointed that out _many times_. If you feel like insulting me, go ahead, but dont extend that on other people, especially those I respect. HVSC team members dont agree with most of my remarks, so they would feel insulted even by suggestions that I speak on behalf of them, let alone throwing shit at them directly, which you just did.
05. Dec 2003 14:23
Making playtime 2:00 mins on default could end in the trend of making short tunes made just for the compo. Wouldn?t it be vain to make compos with tunes which wouldn?t be listeneable after the party because they would be too short?. Rules about exact playing time I find too restrictive. Imagine compo goes on and tune develops it?s just going to make the final impact on audience (the great solo which starts on 2:30) and I?ll cut it after 2 mins somewhere in the middle of the melody. Then starting another tune which plays practically the same loop for 2 minutes without anything special in it then cut it after 2 minutes in the middle of the loop. Isn?t it better to make smooth mix of presented tunes trying to play tunes as long as they show some development even when it sometimes is over 3 minutes sometimes under 3 minutes. What is important, the ego of the authors who need their 3 munutes of fame? Or amusement of the audience who came to the party to enjoy the compos, not to be bored by them. I?ve noticed that most of the voters put their votes on the paper in the first 1:30 of the tune playtime. That means if you don?t persuade them about your thing in the first part of the tune, you wouldn?t probably get more points later. I haven?t noticed many of such late correctures in the votesheets. I mean what is the best way how to present music? To cut it into blocks without any transition? Or to try to present them in smooth mix, develop the compo atmosphere, and give audience chance to breathe that atmosphere. For that, any 2 minute or 3 minute playtime rule will not work. I?ll probably have to go for restrictive rules like if there will be over 30 tunes, the playtime will be max 2 mins. But what if the tune is so cool that 2 mins isn?t enough for it? Cutting every tune after 2 minutes? I know it?s not the best argument I could came with, but isn?t it barbarian?
05. Dec 2003 15:26
Is there any difficulty other than administrative to set up a "2 minute" compo, a "triangle wave" compo or a "Galway style" compo, and see what the results will be? Those disliking the idea dont have to participate, as it wont the THE ONLY compo ever. It might be a new craze, and then established or it might be deserted and then youve at least tried and failed.
05. Dec 2003 15:38
 Organiser organises the things he likes to organise. I was thinking about some "style compos" or even "cover compo of the exact tune" but then I was considering the possible flaws and I found them not attractive enough for me to organise ... yet. I might come up with something but only when Im sure it will work, or that Ill be able to manage it to an acceptable result.
05. Dec 2003 16:18
 hrm, in that vein, i keep thinking that a 1 channel compo would be cool - but i suspect that no-one (excpet me, becuase i keep thinking that its cool :-p) would enter it :-p
a life in hell
05. Dec 2003 16:35
I think the ego of the composer is something very important, because it is THEY who put in the effort to make the music. NOT the audience, NOT the organizers. And as such, getting your tune cut short because the audience or the organizers dont like the first minute of your tune is a straight punch in your face, because they are NOT treated equally with respect to other composers who might get a longer playing time. And that is unfair to them.
At X2001 (youve been there, CreamD), I saw this happen and although I was part of the composers whose tunes got played 3 minutes and more, I felt just as offended as the other composers who got cut off after, what, a minute or so. Its unfair.
You have a choice: either every composer is treated equally, or publicly admit that youll be playing tunes the way you see fit. Choose to treat the composers fairly or choose to treat them unfairly. Whichever you choose, be sure to state this VERY CLEARLY in advance in the rules, so that later on, no composer can come up to complain. And that way, composers will be able to decide beforehand whether theyre willing to make an entry under those rules or not.
Since the overwhelming majority of the partygoers have their votes down in the first 1:30, why not limit playtime to 1:30? No, cutting off isnt barbaric, as long as its clearly allowed by the rules. Your house, your rules, right? I mean, its more than okay to cut off something you see not cutting it, so cutting the better tunes is just as okay.
05. Dec 2003 16:50
i think a cover compo sounds pretty attractive to me. though, the outcome would be more or less only attractive on the technical side.
 make that 2 of us.
05. Dec 2003 16:58
i would like a one channel compo more than a cover compo. I like the challenge of that ;)
05. Dec 2003 17:00
To see whats possible, check out HVSC: C64Music/Tel_Jeroen/Teenage_Mutant_Hero_Trtles.sid
Tunes 6, 7, 8 and 9 are all 1-channel :)
05. Dec 2003 17:01
Same for tunes 4 and 5 in Robocop 3 :)
05. Dec 2003 17:23
One of Aleksi Eebens tunes is also crammed into one channel.
05. Dec 2003 17:28
(Discussion: 1337 reactions)
05. Dec 2003 17:31
Vip, yeah Ive noticed the insensitive way of music compo presentantion at X2001 and also the hollow bassy sound equipment ?!? (which is a little bit subjective feeling I must admit). I was not very satisfied, but then what can you expect from non-musician. (Sorry Werner, I dont mean this as offense). Me myself (and Irene), Im a musician and I try to respect the other musicians work as much as possible (which doesnt mean I sometimes dont do mistakes).
05. Dec 2003 17:32
Seems like I should finally move this offlight and this spot to X-MASS compo. Ill do that sometimes tommorow.
05. Dec 2003 17:38
Then respect it by making the compo rules *crystal clear*.
05. Dec 2003 18:11
Anonymous compo. Minimal guaranteed playing time 2:00. (3:00 for 15 tunes, 2:30 for 20 tunes, 2:00, for 30 tunes, 1:30 for 35 and more tunes). 1 tune per composer. No covers.
05. Dec 2003 18:37
"(Discussion: 1337 reactions)" :DDDD 31337 sp4k
Vip: tune 7 of TMHT is 1 channel? I cant notice it man, I hear two. Incredible.*bows down*
05. Dec 2003 19:02
creamd, win what argument? either sb has problems reading or has problems in general, so not much to argue about there. but its heart warming to see that the people who are into pseudo c64 activities stick out for eachother. must be a lovely crowd to be in with.
vip, why do i flame? well perhaps because all i wrote in the first place was that i didnt like preselection and that i liked murdocks tune, and sb immediately started attacking me(for what reason, only he knows). now i must hurry up and flame back before creamd tries to make me shut up, and sb comes dragging with downvotes or whatever wag the dog trick he might pull this time
05. Dec 2003 19:15
That sounds *excellent*, CreamD :). And the fact that the playtime is decided on the spot is not that bad. But, ask of the composers that they clearly mark the length of their tune, and if its shorter than the time you allot for it, only play it for its indicated length. It would be kind of stupid to play a 1:30 tune twice when 3:00 playing time is guaranteed. :)
05. Dec 2003 19:22
I know, thats why I directed the comment to SB as well. Still, you should try to introduce your points a little more politely, because that way people will pay more attention to your remarks, which are certainly valid. (and for the record: I hate preselection with a passion that transcends conventional love and personally, I didnt like murdocks tune - it wasnt bad, but didnt stand out for me either. Nahh, gimme Cybersoap instead).
05. Dec 2003 19:46
"Seems like I should finally move this offlight and this spot to X-MASS compo. I?ll do that sometimes tommorow.
05. Dec 2003 19:58
Pi: i might be dumb, but does the xmas music compo entry has to be of an xmassy tune, or am i free to compose whatever i want?
05. Dec 2003 20:54
Hollowman I hope you don?t mean I?m into pseudo C64 activities. Do you? Because if you don?t then it looks like you do and I would gladly appreciate that you either apologise or explain. And anyway this looks like deja-vu.. and now you will say Im touchy like Puterman did last time.
05. Dec 2003 21:44
"pseudo C64 activities" - hey, now I can understand your taste better... Apparently you and Murdock have more in common than I thought.
Stop behaving like a little kid. "oh, sb attacked me, it was just defending myself". No. I hinted that your manifested fondness of Murdocks tune may be caused not just by your taste, but your type of personality as well. People, who are so desperate to speak their own voices that they will deny everything widely accepted and vice versa, exist, and are called anticonformists. My hint that perhaps you are one of them isnt an attack, its an amateur attempt at diagnostics. To quote Public Image Ltd, "I could be right and I could be wrong". Prove the latter.
05. Dec 2003 22:28
I sometimes wonder why I read, and even post on, these "scene" forums. I guess it must be some masochistic tendency I have. Why does everything have to be taken as a personal attack? So that you wont notice when people are actually trying to insult someone? After 5 hours of coding, this is really the kind of break I need: bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit.
My previous experience from this kind of discussions tells me that what Ive written above will render at least one response along the lines of "if you dont like these discussions, read something else". Well, thats an alternative, but from time to time someone actually says something interesting. Its not often, and when that happens, you can be sure that that person will be flamed half to death by wannabes who think that blabbering on forums is the way to get respect.
It kind of bothers me that some of you have so much to say in these discussions, and yet have so little to say in other ways. It kind of bothers me that most of you never produce anything (no, in my opinion, "composing" a handful of tunes a year doesnt cut it), yet some of you are praised as geniuses in discussions like this one, while people who actually do something are ignored or ridiculed.
I guess what Im trying to say is that most of you are doing a great job at making yourselves look ridiculous. Some of you are begging to be insulted and dragged in the dirt, but in a dramatic break with tradition, I wont do anything like that in this message. But please read the scrollers in my upcoming demos. Look out for the word "fuckings". You might find your name there. If you think thats out of line in some way, if you think its rude, then maybe you should stick to the "web scene", "emulator scene", "geos scene" or why not the "friendship scene". You suck. You really do.
05. Dec 2003 22:29
Forget that little kid remark. I dont want to discuss using insults, really.
05. Dec 2003 22:31
Who makes flames? Who insults? *sigh*
05. Dec 2003 22:43
Puterman, you will list all of the people you have fucked with in your next demo? Gosh, talk about a x-mas compo trying to get on THAT list!
06. Dec 2003 00:23
 For Gods sake, Linus, what are you talking about? I know Im no good at understanding in your opinion, but care to explain it?
06. Dec 2003 10:51
CreaMD: *sigh* indeed.
SB: No, thatd be pointless.
06. Dec 2003 12:57
sb, you dont have to tell once again that your opinions voiced here isnt the opinions of hvsc team, noone doubts that you can act like a total arse on your own. but seeing your interpretation of my posts and your unability to understand putermans post does sort of hint that you do need the help of others in your daily life.
but now to the thing i keep getting more and more curious about: i wrote
"one tune that caught my ear at once was welcome home by murdock" , now how do you from that small amount of text and the sole fact that murdocks tune caught my attention and liking, that i: try hard to be original, and that that is the reason why i like ed, i try to stand out of the crowd and the reason i wrote it was to provoke?
is the reason why you like or say you like a certain type of music or composer that you want to prove yourself different and original, since you did draw this conclusion about me? could that attitude perhaps explain why you keep babbling about jazz and your coltrane records that took yeeears to be able to appreciate?
i do have little understanding of music and i keep liking the wrong music without knowing better, while my buddies slag on Paul Kubiszyn and crown rave_techno as the worst tune in hvsc i happily listen to a few of his other tunes. at meetings i might start listening to sads music collections which causes other to cover their ears and tell me that i have the worst music taste and when i say that smalltown boy has made a few good tunes i get laughed at.
creamd, you run a website and arrange a .sid competition. do i need to apologize for saying that?
06. Dec 2003 14:58
"It kind of bothers me that some of you have so much to say in these discussions, and yet have so little to say in other ways. It kind of bothers me that most of you never produce anything (no, in my opinion, "composing" a handful of tunes a year doesn?t cut it), yet some of you are praised as geniuses in discussions like this one, while people who actually do something are ignored or ridiculed."
*Vips little conscience steps back with the utmost pleasure.*
Are you accusing us of being unproductive, puterman? Are you accusing *me*? Are you saying Im a fuck? Well, it must be, since you mentioned noone in particular in your little discourse.
It bothers me hearing this kind of generalized speech, especially when it oozes ignorance, or lack of respect. So allow me to return the favor. It bothers me that you (sorry, wont generalize - I would, but Ive got something called respect) never produce anything (no, in my opinion, "coding" a handful of parts a year doesnt cut it), yet you do have the masochistic tendency to post in forums like this and vent your obvious ignorance and lack of respect.
I *respect* coders. I know the hard work that goes into a part, especially if its a groundbreaking new one. You dont code that the way you code a couple of rasterbars. Its an arduous job, optimizing every chance you get to achieve the desired result.
Now get this: composing music goes in just the same way. You should respect the hard work that goes into composing a tune, especially the ones that try to break with the mold and explore new areas, like Ed, like Skiz, like Jeff. You cant compose those tunes so easily - its a tough job, where you optimize every sequence until that what you hear is worthwhile within your own perception.
Perhaps youve only heard a few tunes from me this year. Perhaps my HVSC list hasnt changed a lot since 2002. But that doesnt mean I have been lazy. The HVSC crew so far hasnt updated my list, because I did release a few things over the year. And then there are the tunes that havent been released yet.. a lot of them are used in projects that are under development. Apart from that, there are the many worktunes. Tunes which will never see the light of day because they didnt turn out the way I wanted to. Im sure you have some work codes lying around, dont you? I could release all these tunes and double the size of my HVSC list, but while it would make me look productive, it would contain things Im not too happy with. So umm, no.
Did I mention I do graphics, too? Ever since Insomnia, Ive been making sketches and drawing something at least every day to be able to achieve something that can be regarded as quality pixelwork using my own sketches. Yes, original stuff, not from photos or scans or wires or artwork from other people. Thats in there as well and Im sorry if that doesnt result in things that can be published immediately, but in my opinion, it counts as work and Im sure itll pay out in the long run. For the record: pixelling is hard work too, so a handful of artworks per year is a norm and not an expression of laziness.
Im so sorry that I tried to share my experiences on this board, apparently I was making an utter fool of myself. Well, you dont have to worry about that any longer. No more competitions, no more useless discussions, from now on Ill let the music and the graphics speak for themselves. Those who do respect me in some twisted sense and know what reason is know how to reach me, so Ill see you there. Peace. Out.
06. Dec 2003 15:15
"But that doesn?t mean I have been ?lazy?. The HVSC crew so far hasn?t updated my list, because I did release a few things over the year."
They will be added in the Christmas update. Hopefully all of them, and if we miss out on something, dont hesitate to report that.
06. Dec 2003 15:18
Puterman: OK, dont explain. I assume that your post was just a stream of extreme frustration, and therefore cant be taken seriously.
06. Dec 2003 15:32
Hollowman I take that as an insult. Do I have to explain why?
06. Dec 2003 15:35
Puterman we dont speak the tongue of the same tribe it seems.
06. Dec 2003 17:11
Is my C64 scene support a pseudo C64 activity? Is organising of computer parties music composing, C64 news site running a pseudo C64 activity.? Did I say that Ill never released a demo again? Is releasing of my last (ahem) demo in 2001 making me inactive C64 scener? Is everyone who is not coder unowrthy? How much should I do to please everyone? How much more should I do to gain respect of hardcore sceners? You do demos. I do this site to help to spread demos. Have I ever said that doing C64.sk is more than your demos? HAve I ever played celebrity and demanded fame and false respect? So I love to compose and organising of parties. I never quit C64 scene. My two brothers faded away when they started they jobs like the most C64 sceners. But after all those eyars I get it. Its life. Its normal. Its normal to choose what one wants to do. Im choose to be self-emplyed and work over 10 hours a day during the week. I have a fiancee with whom I plan to spend rest of my life and make children. And most of all Im not obliged to apologise to you or any other scener for anything I do, because I do suport scene as much as I can and there are visible results of my... "pseudo c64 activities*.. every year. So Im running a website. Great! How much do you know about websites? How do you evaluate an importance of websites? I dont get it. Explain it to me? Why do you like silly website for general arty-farty scene (a.k.a. pouet.net) and dont support C64 scene website like CSDB instead? Tell me whats so good on the Pouet, for purist C64 user like you? The feeling of being a part of something? Yeah. How good feeling it is? I do positive support of C64 scene even support you and Puterman.
And after more than 2 years of doing c64,sk. I learn that its just not good enough. That doing one online music compo once a year is pseudo C64 activity. I gotta drop this article off spotlight with extreme pleasure. I should have done that sooner.
06. Dec 2003 18:20
The authors and voters comments will be released.
06. Dec 2003 18:22
Vip: "some of you", "most of you". Your reasoning is flawed.
CreaMD: This site is a good source of news. But it doesnt beat a demo. If you need some advice on how to prioritize: if youre choosing between 6502 asm and php, always pick 6502 asm.
06. Dec 2003 18:50
It?s not about DEMO coding or PHP coding (which part of my job). Have I ever wasted time over PHP coding for C64? HAve I ever dane worthless web-page for C64? And, have I ever diminished your work or Hollowmans? Have I ever disrespect you?
The bad thing on that is that I was attacked by Hollowman. I have never said I agree with SB in any aspect, I just pointed out that Hollwoman used insulting way of argumentantion, sarcastic language. What I got in return was insult. It was the same kind of insult as babbitt (I didnt dare to use the word Ive used in first version of this post.) people do. Putting people to groups and labelling them! What should be my answer? Tell me Puterman?
06. Dec 2003 19:32
Puterman: Is it? The concepts "some of you" and "most of you" are so vague in there that it just as well could say "all of you". Note that the union of "some of you" and "most of you" can be anything from 1 person to the entire group. Your post is like a horoscope reading - its such a blurb that everyone can recognize themselves in it (I see quality=quantity thus few releases makes you a lazy *censored*, CreamD sees pseudo c64 activities, and I bet others see more). So I stand by my statement that you are *very likely calling us *all* lazy *censored*, and thus I will call *you* a lazy *censored* as well, since releasing a handful of *insert activity here* every year defines it by your marvelous reasoning. And oh for the record, Id rather release one *really* cool tune a la "Cyberworld/Jeff" every year over releasing two dozen tunes that are forgotten the minute theyre heard. Quantity equals quality my *censored* *censored*.
*hi-fives CreamD for putting this topic off the spotlight*
06. Dec 2003 19:43
"while my buddies slag on Paul Kubiszyn and crown rave_techno as the worst tune in hvsc i happily listen to a few of his other tunes. at meetings i might start listening to sad?s music collections which causes other to cover their ears and tell me that i have the worst music taste and when i say that smalltown boy has made a few good tunes i get laughed at"
Hollowman, re-read your own words twice and tell me: dont they confirm my diagnosis? Arent you proud of your musical taste, which is so original that simply cant be understood by your buddies? Judging from your own words, yes you are.
06. Dec 2003 19:55
. o O ( hrm, i like some of both Sads (particularly Ladislav) and PKs stuff - should i be worried? :) )
a life in hell
06. Dec 2003 21:23
Who is not proud of his own taste?
06. Dec 2003 22:21
Vip: (The union of the two groups could also be 0 people.) You might want to consider different possible interpretations of what I said (and what people say in general). And I dont agree that its "very likely" that someone who says "some of you" and "most of you" really means "all of you".
CreaMD: It looks to me like youre searching some peoples messages for something you can interpret as an insult. I tried to explain why some of the things you choose to spend time on are regarded as "pseudo C64 activity" by some people.
Indeed, you pointed out, quite strongly, that you didnt see Hollowmans posts as approprite. And youve done it twice during this discussion. When others have used insults, you have remained silent.
06. Dec 2003 22:39
No, because the union of two sets is empty only and only if both sets are empty, and its impossible that both the "some of you" and "both of you" sets are empty since consciously thinking up an offending reasoning about a joint set which is _empty_ would be quite pointles. But, if it was your goal to talk about *nothing at all*, then I duly stand corrected. With that settled, since n equals the total amount of c64 composers and we know that any amount between 1 and n is targeted (unless I duly stand corrected), we can deduce quite readily that the expectancy equals (n+1)/2. Thats slightly more than half, but even if it was half, it would be too much already.
06. Dec 2003 22:41
 D, are you proud of what you eat? Then why should you be proud of what you listen to?
06. Dec 2003 22:56
SB, Im just saying Im not ashamed of my taste. What I like or dont like is a part of who I am, hence I am proud of it. Are you saying youre not only picky but also ashamed of what you prefer?
06. Dec 2003 22:56
Sounds rather repressed to me :)
07. Dec 2003 09:16
Vip: Youre right of course. Its been years since I had anything to do with set theory.
07. Dec 2003 13:59
sb, you totally missed what i tried to say, but thats allright, i see how desperate you are to prove your point which was wrong in the first place. ive never tried to use my musical taste to prove myself different, original, interesting,whatever. and if i would try i would make a fool of myself, which i tried to show by my little example. if you turn off your deep analysis (which only seem to generate feedback anyway) and read what i actually wrote, without trying to make it fit into the image you made of me everything will start to make more sense. besides how can anyone be proud of listening to sad, paul kubiszyn or smalltown boy?
creamd, you made a demo two years ago? wow..if we all were as active as you we wouldnt have seen a new demo since 2001:) you make a great website, and we can all check in daily to see photos from willowparty, leech deus ex screenshots or get the trailer for vision2003 video. you also arrange a sidcompo with many contributions which interests a lot of people who cant wait to start sidplay and listen to the tunes. but if you are so proud of what youve done during these years, why do you get so upset about the word pseudo? to quote someone who stands very close to you stop whining.
oh and btw. you dismiss pouet as being silly and artyfarty. Great! How much do you know about websites? How do you evaluate an importance of websites? I don’t get it. Explain it to me?
07. Dec 2003 21:19
Puterman: right I should have minded my business and not patronize Hollowman coz I wouldn?t have to fight with windmills then.. ,but I choose to try to point something out and I received his "appreciation".
Hollowman: your post points out that this site supports mostly worthless shit (and I look forward for your reply which will tell me that you didnt say that, but I did). Thank you I got the message. Yes I?m proud of myself because I follow this scene and I bet I know more about it than you do, and I know more people inside it (even by name) than you do. And guess why? Because I?m trying to follow all aspects of this weird scene. I have my mission and that mission I?ve explained many times before. I do this page to increase scene communication and spreading of stuff. Support projects which gain feedback from the audience of the stuff which is being released on C64. I do party and compo organising to increase scene productivity. That is my way. That is my work what I try to invest into this scene. So you don?t appreciate this pseudo-c64-activity. Okay, keep on having your short-minded view on the scene and now please leave me alone coz I don?t want to learn any more of your new scene definitions. Next time I might be added to retarted scene cathegory and that could give me a heart-attack. Go make demos. I?ll be gladly watching them until you stop doing them. I won?t be upset on you when you quit, coz it?s quite usual thing. That also happens in better families.
07. Dec 2003 21:54
creamd, knowing alot of people on the c64 scene is hardly something admireable, but ok. good for you. and i almost believe you when you talk about having a heart-attack. dont know what to make of the end of your post. are you breaking up with me?
07. Dec 2003 22:08
Sooner or later you will stop picking up the raisins out of the cake of human communication and you will start to see the world in all its delicated complicatedness. That will be probably the time when you will be able realise the meaning of the last part of my post, although it will be probably long forgotten at that time.
08. Dec 2003 22:57
Hmm.. Where are the user/jury comments ? ;)
09. Dec 2003 12:27
Well, should my comments be added, then I hope that the 4 criteria preceding the comments will be added as well, otherwise, my short quotes wont make a lot of sense...
09. Dec 2003 14:29
: IMHO, only one of PHP and 6502 assembly code can generate steady income today. Guess which?
09. Dec 2003 18:12
6502 if youre good enough at it to win demo compos.
09. Dec 2003 19:25
Ah, ok. I forgot about these monthly $2000 compos.. sorry for my ignorance.
09. Dec 2003 21:29
were only in it for the money
09. Dec 2003 22:41
10. Dec 2003 00:54
Im all in for the MIA jury comments. :P
19. Dec 2003 11:34
user and author comments anyone? =)
20. Dec 2003 08:40
Beep! Beep! Beep! Comments plz! Comments required!
15. Jan 2004 17:48
17. Oct 2004 10:31
Comments will be added, sorry for delay, I simply forgot that some SID compo III existed. Too much real-life problems error.