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 The Dark Court 3/2001    
The Dark Court 3/2001It's no secret that the quantity of demos has decreased, but what about the quality? To answer this question, The Dark Judge has decided to check out today's demos and rate all of them from 10 (very bad) to 99 (near-perfect). What do today's demos look like? Are they worth watching? You will learn in the first of this series of articles written by The Dark Judge of Focus.

[1] : 16. Oct 2001 10:56   
It struck me. Reading a recent demo review is one of the things I haven't done in quite a while now. Certainly, TDJ has put considerable effort in this, which is to applaude. As for the discussion, I would have rated Extend higher, but I must admit, I'm an Electric fan. but anyway, keep it up.
Oxbow / Xenon

[2] : 16. Oct 2001 13:17   
Cool to read such reviews, and it's true that some demos really lack quality. But what shouldn't be forgot is that not only perfection can exist. Many people are still on the way to it. And if they are told their demos suck, they might be too demotivated to go on. But well, this assumes that everyone gives his best and does not just want to release 'something'.

[3] : 16. Oct 2001 13:24   
I'd rate every Focus demo (apart from sander's visions) 20/100
don zonsson/ninjagefilus

[4] : 16. Oct 2001 13:45   
What is Ninjage(fi)lus about, Don?

[5] : 16. Oct 2001 14:06   
My graphics might be bad, but the demo would have looked pretty boring if the only gfx had been wiggens fonts :) I think all people need some spanking now and then and who is better to perform it than TDJ ?

[6] : 16. Oct 2001 14:57   
'I'd rate every Focus demo (*) 20/100 don zonsson/ninjagefilus' - let's keep this stuff a bit more serious. TDJ is one of the few who dares to stick his neck out, stepping on peoples toes is inevitable. So don't go hiding behind some pseudonym, and start a discussion instead.

[7] : 16. Oct 2001 15:11   
Very good reviews. I think I'd give the Extend demos some more attention though. And "Opression" was just a small meeting-demo by Tao and Taper, I wouldn't even put it in this in a "demo-review" myself... but I see your point. :) Anyway Marco, what about another smasher for X2001? :)

[8] : 16. Oct 2001 15:17   
Hollowman. Good point. For instance Dmagic Birdmo got a fair review, although I miss some comment's about musics and timing, as it was the most interesting part of the demo making for me. In my opinion, bad advertising is better that no advertising at all.

[9] : 16. Oct 2001 16:58   
Just wanted to comment as the creator of Fitspeak 2 that I have now grown up and will never again release an fun-production... Except maybe Fitspeak 3 and so on ;) And what's wrong with a bit of porn? Almost every man watches it sometimes...
Britelite / Dekadence

[10] : 16. Oct 2001 19:24   
No please, no more fun Brite ;-). How about some more Beertime.

[11] : 16. Oct 2001 20:46   
I seldom agree with the reviewer's thoughts when I read demoreviews on the net, or in the mags. That is why I have always been against demoreviews, and never fully understood what they are good for. Take 100 people, show them ten demos, and get atleast 50 different opinions on those demos. Expressing your personal thought about a demo is one thing, but trying to act like a pro-critic is for me a total waste of time. Taste does differ, and I hope that people always take their time to view the demos themselves and get their own opinion - even after reading a bad review somewhere. I think this is especially fatal for more unknown and smaller groups, who perhaps loose a lot of audiance because of bad reviews. I personally rate "Total Epygt" a lot higher, not to mention "Orivesi" also by Extend, which I think is so damn great! But why take my words for it, always check for yourselves. By the way, TDJ writes in the article about the little TRIAD release OPPRESSION; "Basically this is nothing more than a modified intro[...]" - which is totally true, so why even bother to review a small 34 block meetingproduction together with large demos? It was not intended as an extreme kick-ass production, but mostly released because of the important words in the scrolltext, if anyone bothered to read that... The scene can't go on if every damn single release has to be a mega-demo, I very much appreaciate groups putting out a few big demos every year, but a lot of smaller productions in between. This is one way to keep our scene alive.

[12] : 16. Oct 2001 21:45   
what are you saying taper? small demos are demos too, but they shouldnt be reviewed together with larger demos? sounds weird to me=) Ofcourse all demos, no matter what size and which group made it should be reviewed. And as for the defense for opression I can quote a person who read the scroller and said "if you're gonna do a demo which relies on a text, then perhaps it would be a good idea to spend some time on the text". And Britelite, as i always say to you:please, work on a new Vaippaihottuma :)

[13] : 16. Oct 2001 22:06   
Taper, it's a good point, I agree that reviewer cannot enforce his personal taste to audience, but this all demo-reviewing is good for one thing. It's a sort of advertisement for the demos. It can help to bring them closer to the audience. As far as criticism is concerned, I'm sure that the quality stadard for graphic/design and code was higher since the begining of nineties than it is today. I'm glad that TDJ put the standard for great demos so HIGH. It leaves space for better demos which are (I believe) only about to be released.

[14] : 17. Oct 2001 11:45   
Demo reviews usually reflect mostly the reviewer's own taste in demos, true, but so do film reviews. One should treat a demo review like treating any other review, you can get the general idea and the reviewer's impressions, but still check the production yourself. Its true that quality is dropping for some time and lots of productions 'doesnt worth the download time' but consider this: Without those productions, the scene would probably die. How many real quality demos gets released each year? you can count them on one hand & still have fingers left. Only two parties remain where high-profile groups release their work, X and Mekka/Symposium. This is bad, yes, but the answer is not bashing lower quality prods, even if they are 'crap'. The makers of these prods deserve the credit of atleast doing something for the scene. Whether you watch it or like it at all, is your own choice. Just my two cents.. :) Raven

[15] : 17. Oct 2001 12:27   
Hehe, thank you guys :D Well, I'd say the reviews was quite ok for Extend products... Yes, Total Epygt would have been cool if it was released 4 years ago. Orivesi was made in a hurry and was basically just a test for our new demobase... So expect some serious arsekicker from Extend in a near future (Only 100/100 is enough for that, then!) ...
Barfly / Extend

[16] : 17. Oct 2001 12:51   
Too bad the max rating is 99 :)

[17] : 17. Oct 2001 13:02   
Hey,. leave everyone to make whatever demo he/she wants! If Britelite wants fun and porn, then make fun and porn ;) No really,.. I didn't liked to see dicks and stuff :) Nothing is wrong with a bit of Porn btw,. if it's a little softer at least :) But I liked your other demos much better than these ones. But have fun and code what you have fun (Don't listen them,.. and me ;) As for reviews. It's the same like Charts. Charts, reviews, e.t.c.. are subjective. But I find them fun,. it's interesting to see what people like, what is everyone's taste, what are the most famous demos of all time, e.t.c... When reading reviews or viewing charts I always assume that it's not the absolute truth and it's sooo subjective of course of course. Afteralls I download every C64 demo there possible, cause there are very few released and very small, it's nothing even for me with a simple modem connection to download every C64 production out there (This doesn't happen on big scenes like PC of course,. there are several prods I never watch) But I find reviews interesting and I find charts interesting too, even if they seem nonsense to other people... I liked the cartoonish gfx style of Triad's prods, like Manhood2, they fit very well the feeling.. I am really hoping now for some coderswise C64 demos coming X2001, from Crest, Resource, Padua. I just heard so.. let's see! More later... Cu Optimus/Dirty Minds

[18] : 17. Oct 2001 13:32   
In my opinion TDJ's criticism is justified and mostly to the point ... and slight subjectivity can in this case be considered as virtue.

[19] : 17. Oct 2001 14:01   
Hollowman, you know very well that I have always been against demoreviews in general, so my opinion on that subject has ofcourse nothing to do with certain specific demos getting bad or good reviews, I was just making examples. So, I can simply not answer your question wheter I think that small demos should be reviewed together with big ones or not, since I don't like demoreviews at all. By the way, what is a demo and what is an intro, and is it fair to measure intros with the same criterias as demos? You end your post with a subjective statement about the text in Oppression and it's good that you read it and formed your own opinion. However, others have told me that they liked the text, which must mean that taste differs (as always), and again would "prove" my point in why I find demoreviews useless. Finally, I agree with Raven to a certain extent when it comes to treating demoreviews like any other reviews (films, books etc.), however in my case this means that I very seldom read them, and when I do I more or less never agree with the reviewer. I must also add that this has nothing to do with who the reviewer himself happens to be, wheter it is any of my groupmates, TDJ (whom I have high respects for), or anyone I happen to dislike. It's the whole review-bonanza I dislike.

[20] : 17. Oct 2001 14:14   
Why compare demos with each other anyway. If you are going to rewiev a demo look at the demo you review and nothing else. I often read comments like, the demo has some nice parts but its way too short and therefore it cant get full points. Or on the contrary the demos is long but have not some impressive effects... In my opinion a demo can ONLY be judged over the overall impression and that is ofcoz a matter of taste. I am not against reviews as its good advertisment for a demo, especially for those small productions who is not released at parties... but comparing demos to each other is just stupid // Dwangi

[21] : 17. Oct 2001 15:25   
I love demos

[22] : 17. Oct 2001 15:38   
I still wish I had a c64 for brain, and a sid in my throat, Then I would tell you tales of the most excellent demos. Using Sam Reciter as oral output. anyway nice reviews TDJ - keep em coming ... ehrmm !?

[23] : 17. Oct 2001 15:40   
I totally agree with Don

[24] : 17. Oct 2001 15:57   
I won't be as irritating as others and leave witty comments, or even creative criticism. A little bit of that polish poetry would be nice though, but I'll just leave things as they are now. Bye.

[25] : 17. Oct 2001 18:46   
What's the goal of making a demo? If the author did it to produce a kick-ass-high-end demo, it should be judged by this criteria. If it was done just for fun, comments like that the graphics are of low quality etc. are useless, as the authors probably know themselves.

[26] : 17. Oct 2001 19:28   
I’m not looking for the perfect demo, as it doesn’t exist (hence the 99 points maximum). What I am looking for however is innovation, something that makes a demo stand out from the rest in a positive way. Now, I’m very critical, so even when a demo boosts original things, another thing in the same demo can just as easily lower the rating. If the graphics of Orivesi wouldn’t bother me so much, the demo might have gotten at least 10 points more. Also, size has nothing to do with it: Thief is only 29 blocks, but it managed to give me the creeps, something very few demo’s have succeeded to do. Most mega-demo’s don’t know how to pace themselves, boring me to death. As for Oppression: it didn’t grab me at all, so I felt no reason to read the scrolltext. It’s common knowledge that to make people ‘get’ your message you’ve got to ‘give’ them something else as well. I do base my ratings on overall impression, a system I’ve been using since 1996. But it’s nonsense to say that you should review every demo on their own, as the quality of a demo is determined by it’s environment as well. Let’s say some group releases a great demo, scoring high marks, then releases another demo which is virtually the same, only with different music & graphics. Should that last one receive the same amount of points? And what if another group releases a demo which is very much like it? Ofcourse my own taste plays a big role in my reviews: I even acknowledge that in the intro of this article. But find me a man who can give objective reviews, and I’ll show you a machine, as personal preferences will always matter. So why write those reviews then? First of all, I like doing it, so it’s not a waste of time at all. Also, I like ‘trying to act as a pro-critic’. Because those step-by-step descriptions of demo’s in most reviews are completely unreadable. And I know I can write very well, so why not use that talent here? Or should I first get some kind of diploma? Also, I am hoping to steer people towards productions they might have missed. Maybe a scener hasn’t seen anything for 2 years, how would he know what’s worth checking out? He can ofcourse download everything but that’s a tedious job, and after watching dozens of similair demo’s he’s probably not willing to spend any more time on it. At least, that’s my own experience (I did this in 1997, almost got scared away for good). So that’s why I’m not just reviewing the latest demo’s, but working backwards as well, hoping to present people a list of screengems for every year the scene ever existed. Finally, I think most people like having their demo reviewed: it used to give me a boost, if it was done in a honest way (because getting a bad review just because somebody doesn’t like you sucks). If somebody decides to stop creating demo’s because I gave them a bad review, well, they simply don’t belong in the scene. If you create & release something, I have the right to give my opinion about it. If you don’t like that, tough luck. But just like I don’t care about what you want, you shouldn’t care about what I want. So Britelite, go make Fitspeak 3, but if it’s as bad as nr.2 I will once again slam it into the ground ;) ‘nuff said ..
The Dark Judge/Focus

[27] : 17. Oct 2001 19:32   
Sorry for the long block of text, there were breaklines in them when I wrote it but they dissapeared. As for the Thunderblade's question: as a reviewer I don't care what the reason for a demo is, all that's important to me is if I like it :)
The Dark Judge/Focus

[28] : 17. Oct 2001 20:02   
TDJ is for sure a gifted writer and his reviews are a lot more describing than the "green-dot-in-upper-border" kind of reviews. But my main criticism of reviews is that they are subjective - and just like TDJ says, it's impossible to find someone totally objective. There is simply no such thing as 100% objectivity. If I was a scener that hadn't seen one single c64 demo for 2 years, I would without doubt try to leech all releases during that period and watch them myself. What if my taste differs totally from TDJ's, and I follow his recomendations and find myself watching a lot of subjectively sucky demos. I would probably think something like "if these were the best, why should I even bother with the rest of them", and put my c64 back in the closet, and perhaps miss out on a lot of demos I would have enjoyed. Just like TDJ says, though, anyone creating anything should be ready to be judged, but by the subjective personal opinions of self-aware people, not because of some "universal" reviews. I must also point out that I don't find demoreviews to be something extremly dangerous, as I have a feeling that most people don't take them as the only truth, but I personally see no use with them. Time could be spent better (which also applies to me for taking the time to debate here, hehe).

[29] : 17. Oct 2001 21:16   
Audience (we all, and many others) should watch & talk about creations, discuss the graphic, designs, ideas, effects, musics - give authors feedback, maybe even "react" in own productions such as demos ;-). Reviews are one way of reacting to demos. I've noticed that many reactions in this discussion are longer than the whole single review in the article ;-), and we practically don't discuss the content of the reviews itself but value & releavancy of doing them. I have same opinion as Dwangi - review is a good advertisement. Many latest productions were released on the web & forgotten. By recapitulating/reviewing the latest releases after months can help not only hardcore commodore users, but also to general populace of earth unaware of the C64 scene existence (this terminology is borrowed from the official handbooks of the Marvel Comics Universe) to get the idea about what is happening in the C64 scene of today. It's sometimes more like a full-time job to write a review, to make screenshots, but also to maintain charts & release a disk magazine, but I believe it is simply a crucial part of the so-to-speak scene public relations. We need to communicate, and this is also a way of doing it.

[30] : 17. Oct 2001 21:16   
One thing that annoys me a little about demo reviews for the C64 is that when we're getting less and less productions coming out, the fact that somebody got off their arse and *did* something doesn't seem to be a factor. Okay, so a bad demo is subjective, but even if there was something that *everybody* agreed was a bad demo, isn't it better than no demo at all? Personally, I've stopped doing reviews because I personally haven't released for a year, what right would I have to slag off any current productions? They got off their arses and did what *they* wanted to see, I didn't...

[31] : 17. Oct 2001 21:35   
TMR: I think you're wrong. I'd be much happier about the set of demos released if it was equal to the present one, minus the ones containing porn and/or BASIC code. It's always nice to see that stuff gets released, but if the quality is below a certain level, it'd be much better if those releases had never been released.

[32] : 17. Oct 2001 21:46   
I disagree with TMR as well. I would rather see no demo's at all than bad demo's. Also, if somebody has proven himself in the past, I think he has the right to comment on other people's work ..
The Dark Judge/Focus

[33] : 17. Oct 2001 21:53   
Well, I probably won't make another Fitspeak, as I really didn't enjoy making Fitspeak 2 as much as I should have. But I will continue making productions that will piss off people with no sense of humour...
britelite / dekadence

[34] : 17. Oct 2001 21:56   
To Puterman: Who judges (ahem, s'cuse the unintentional pun) where that level is? For example, I tend to do simple demos with no "message" that I enjoy making, are they above or below that level; is my doing that detrimental to the scene (if I actually do it, of course... =-) or positive? Okay, BASIC I'll grant you 'cos I wasn't really including deliberately crap product in what I was saying, but any demo where a bit of effort has gone in is surely a plus to the scene even if it's not the style of demo that everyone enjoys...? I didn't enjoy Robotics personally, but my hat is off to you for producing it whilst I'm sat here doing nothing...

[35] : 17. Oct 2001 22:01   
generally, demoreviews are always fucking subjective. probably not, if they're done by a reviewer team like a composer, pixeler and a coder. but if done by a single person, they are subjective. but this doesn't have to be bad. really.

[36] : 17. Oct 2001 22:04   
I disagree and agree with TDJ (in that order) because I think that no demos is not a good thing to have. As for the right to comment, everybody has that; I was saying that I *personally* don't feel that I should, having been out of the loop.

[37] : 17. Oct 2001 22:10   
TMR, let's say your fave band stops making good music and only produces shit. What would you rather have: them making fools of themselves, or stopping while they're still ahead? Because that's the situation our scene might wind up in ..
The Dark Judge/Focus

[38] : 17. Oct 2001 23:08   
I would like to see good old bands to play their good old sh... you know what. ;-).

[39] : 18. Oct 2001 08:34   
TMR: I find something positive in most releases. Even the simplest logo+scroller intros are okay. But basically, if it's written in BASIC or contains pornographic material, it's not something I'm going to watch again. Britelite: If not liking porn is equal to not having any sense of humour, I guess I'm pretty boring.

[40] : 18. Oct 2001 10:13   
Puterman: I didn't mean that liking porn equals having a sense of humour. People just haven't seen it for what it really is, a joke. If you don't like porn, fine, don't watch the demo. Many people do like the demo, so I must have done something right... :) TDJ: Does the fact that I made a porndemo really make me immature? I don't take sex/porn too seriously, and I think it's ok to joke about it...
britelite / dekadence

[41] : 18. Oct 2001 10:36   
TDJ: and about the review, you spent more space insulting me that telling about the demo... nice
britelite / dekadence

[42] : 18. Oct 2001 11:10   
Britelite: I don't think I insulted you more than you insulted a lot of people with Fitspeak 2, or your insinuation that we have no sense of humour. And yes, I do think that making a porndemo makes you look immature ..
The Dark Judge/Focus

[43] : 18. Oct 2001 11:43   
crappy demos shouldnt be released because they could make people think that the c64 is crap. this is especially important at parties where none c64 sceners might see it. And who decides whats crap? I do! ;)

[44] : 18. Oct 2001 11:43   
TDJ: no, but it's not a very good review, now is it? It didn't actually tell anything about the demo, apart from that you think it's disgusting. And I'm sorry if anyone got offended by my statements about lack of humour, I didn't mean to insult anyone. But if anyone actually gets insulted by the demo itself, then I think they're taking stuff way to seriously... but enough about that, everyone is welcome to hate or love my demos as much as they want. If even one person likes my demos, then I have succeeded in my work...
britelite / dekadence

[45] : 18. Oct 2001 12:54   
Britelite: it's not a very good review because your product doesn't deserve a very good review :)
The Dark Judge/Focus

[46] : 18. Oct 2001 14:57   
Britelite: Making one porn demo may not make you seem immature, but 3? :-) Hollowman: So we should send our demos to you before they're released, so that you can tell us if they're crap or not? Sounds good to me.

[47] : 18. Oct 2001 15:01   
Puterman: but I've only made two yet, and there will probably not be a third ;)
britelite / dekadence

[48] : 18. Oct 2001 20:31   
My take on crap demos: if they act as a reason for people to start coding something better ("hey, *I* could do better than that!") then they're a good thing. Puterman: Still not disagreeing about BASIC, but porn is just a matter of taste (look at Dutch Breeze). TDJ: I agree with CreamD about bands playing their old stuff again, if BML reformed and released Dutch Breeze 2 i'd probably like it. =-)

[49] : 18. Oct 2001 21:12   
My take on crap demos: if they act as a reason for people to start coding something better ("hey, *I* could do better than that!") then they're a good thing. Puterman: Still not disagreeing about BASIC, but porn is just a matter of taste (look at Dutch Breeze). TDJ: I agree with CreamD about bands playing their old stuff again, if BML reformed and released Dutch Breeze 2 i'd probably like it. =-)

[50] : 18. Oct 2001 22:47   
Dutch Breeze? I have to say I've seen quite a few demos that are less pathetic. A mix of porn and fantasy, even if well done, can never be good. In _my_ opinion, of course. (I guess this is about as controversial as it ever gets in the C-64 scene.)

[51] : 19. Oct 2001 00:01   
Puterman, how about Krestology, or (IMO) the best demo of the year - Royal Arte? Are those demos pathetic because of nudity shown in them? I don't think so. I enjoyed Manhood, it's a clever demo. It has a story, it has some neat effects (smoke, traditional TRIAD hires animations, etc.). It has got a style, but as far as music and graphics are concerned it's not anything special. I don't have anything against demos with message, I like them, but definitely I love and respect demos on which graphicians, coders and musicians spent a considerable ammount of time. I don't think it's good to divide demos to "valuable"--with strong political or whatever message and "junk" (all which simply deal with nice gfx, nice music and nice effects :). Paraphrasing TDJ freely... good demos stand out!

[52] : 19. Oct 2001 02:06   
It'a all about diversity: both in the scene itself, and in the groups being part of it. I for one would love to see Black Mail return, but with something different than Dutch Breeze 2. After all: it's been almost a decade since that one, just think of the experiences these guys have had that they could use as a basis for their demo! Wouldn't it be a waste to throw that aside, just so we could see more of the same? I know: most groups just produce the same demo over and over (God knows we in Focus used to do that in the early nineties) and most sceners are happy with that. But I prefer progression, even if it may look like a step back sometimes .. And ofcourse this does not have to mean that a demo taking such a step forwards can't have great graphics etcetera, just think of some of the Panoramic stuff, or the classic Seal Of Focalor by MSP.
The Dark Judge/Focus

[53] : 19. Oct 2001 06:41   
In reaction to Hollowman's comment about crappy demos preventing newcomers from entering into the C64 scene: perhaps you have had the experience where you are fanatical about, say, a particular obscure band. You treasure their music as being meant for your own ears. Then one day, a song of theirs appears on the radio, and now EVERYBODY in the world likes the band. Not so cool anymore, because it is no longer personal; it is now just a part of (sigh) pop culture. You are now one of millions instead of one of a few. Think about what it would be like if the C-64 scene were to expand to the point where everyone in the world has their own demo (a bit of an exaggeration). Kind of like back in 1995 when every pimply-faced teenager on the planet bought a book on HTML and designed a web page (just for the sake of doing so), when previously the internet was reserved for primarily computer-savvy people. The WWW has been full of noise ever since. [Yes, I know that coding a C-64 demo takes 1000x the skill of coding HTML, but it is the best analogy I could come up with]. I think that it is a good thing to actively promote expansion of the scene, but if someone is turned off by a crappy demo, let them go. They weren't meant for the C-64 anyway. I think that if you need a creative outlet, you should let it out, regardless if that outlet is a crappy demo. Worrying about turning people off should not dictate limitations of creative freedom. Personally, I sometimes find "crap" inspiring as it spawns the mental "even I can do better than that" utterance.

[54] : 19. Oct 2001 08:27   
CreamD: I like the demos you mention, but I think it would have been nice if they'd put some thought into the pictures in them too. Including naked girls and fantasy stuff doesn't ruin the whole demo for me, but it definitely makes it look pretty bad in my eyes. I also appreciate good code, the code itself can never be responsible for the graphics it displays. But I think it's kind of depressing that you don't have to spend a second thinking about what you're drawing, and you can still be considered a "great artist" in the C-64 scene.

[55] : 19. Oct 2001 09:41   
Puterman: same here. It's especially bitter when you realise some of those 'one-trick-ponies' are able to pull off some real original stuff it they wanted to, but the scene doesn't care, or doesn't even let them ..
The Dark Judge/Focus

[56] : 19. Oct 2001 14:05   
Puterman, TDJ, agreed. I of course don't consider graphicians redrawing stuff to C64 better than original artists and I really dislike uncredited wiring. Just one thing. Not all phantasy conversions are dumb. For instance Courtessy of Soviet is a demo which has a sort-of message and still it's all about fantastic fantasy pictures.

[57] : 19. Oct 2001 15:55   
I think Courtesy of Soviet would have been better without the naked women hugging snakes. Joe's drawn much better things after that demo.

[58] : 19. Oct 2001 16:21   
They are Boris Valejo pics, aren't they??? Why drawing all da same BV images?

[59] : 19. Oct 2001 17:17   
Because it's a tradition. And it makes you popular. And after all, they really are _great_ works of art.

[60] : 19. Oct 2001 18:07   
These BV pics bore me. And I am disappointed that graphicians just re-draw existing images instead of creating new.

[61] : 20. Oct 2001 15:00   
Boris Vallejo is the bore of the C-64 scene. A lot of technically good graphicians have been waisting their breath on producing bad fantasy art with loads of colors. Just because we have a tradition of it doesn't mean that the tradition is good, see? Certain tribes in Polynesia did eat persons from other tribes in the area, but just because they might have tasted good doesn't make eating enemies a good thing to do, just because it's a tradition to do so. Boris Vallejo on the C-64 isn't art. It's a sickness.

[62] : 20. Oct 2001 16:52   
Don't blame Boris, blame graphicians. They were unable to find more original inspiration, it really is THEIR mistake. BV on C64 is art unless it's copied zillions of times - then it becomes commerce. And commerce is not only in grphics, but also in democoding. All copying and overusing of the same ideas is sick blaming BV is not fair it's really not his fault ;-).

[63] : 20. Oct 2001 17:17   
Yes it is BV's fault, lets get 'im! And as for Puterman not liking Dutch Breeze; burn the heretic!! This cold medication is great stuff! [dribble =-] (My next demo has a wired Boris picture and a scroller in and nothing else, in honour of this discussion! =-)

[64] : 20. Oct 2001 17:21   
Someone else out there who does NOT like Dutch Breeze!!! Yeah!!! I'm happy. This over-rated graphic show with the most disgusting pornographical part I've ever seen shouldn't be hyped any more.

[65] : 20. Oct 2001 20:48   
Mirage & Hein have both made shitloads of Boris pictures, while their original work (which they seldom produced for the c64) was much more interesting to me .. That's why Sander is my hero, he has the guts to produce graphics which are not run-off-the-mill, even though he has the ability to draw the normal stuff as well. And that's why Sander is the best Focus graphician, ever ;)
The Dark Judge/Focus

[66] : 20. Oct 2001 22:33   
yes, and thats why people slag on sander because 'he could do better' ;) now as the scene grows older it must be time to leave BV behind. The days of squeezing zits and wanking to girls cuddling with dragons must be over. right?

[67] : 21. Oct 2001 00:41   
So just because you come up with something different, you think you're kool? If your socalled "different thing" looks like crap, I still won't eat it.

[68] : 21. Oct 2001 01:04   
What do we count as "original" here... VB style fantasy art that isn't a copy or does it have to be a different genre? And if so what? (This isn't an argument against the above, i'm just wondering...?)

[69] : 21. Oct 2001 13:40   
Spek: ofcourse being different doesn't automatically means something's good, but when it works the end-result is so much more valuable than the standard way, to me at least. TMR: It's hard to describe what Hein's original style is, if you haven't seen it: it's that original :) As for Mirage, you should see some of his paper-art: it's absolutely beautiful. Now, check our next demo to see a picture by Sander that I consider very original, plus it is an integral part of the concept.
The Dark Judge/Focus

[70] : 22. Oct 2001 20:25   
Ok. Less talk and more demos.

[71] : 24. Oct 2001 14:08   
Tdj: i agree, when it works, yes. The thing is though, most of the people who claim to be different either suck at being different (you know, different doesn't have to mean ugly) or worst, aren't even doing any different! It is this, what bores me. Let's see how different X2001 will be this year. ;)


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